84 Turbo Fuel Problem
02-19-2010, 08:27 AM
#1
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Warrensburg, MO
Posts: 5
84 Turbo Fuel Problem
Drove the car to get my intake piping done, and the car ran out of gas. Now I can't get it to start again. Starts on ether, and checked the coil and plug wires so I know its not a spark problem. The pump primes and runs, filter is new along with lines. I checked for pressure after the filter, along with at the fuel pressure regulator, and i have pressure there, but still won't start.
I pulled parts off my wrecked 86 and started replacing stuff. Replaced coil, tps, fpr, crank angle sensor. Still wouldn't run. So I can codes, and got 8:
11 - Crank Angle Sensor
12 - Mass Air Sensor
13 - Cylinder Head Temp Sensor
14 - Speed Sensor (speedo cable broke so thats obvious)
23 - Throttle Valve Switch
24 - Neutral Safety Switch (assuming since I can start the car without pushing the clutch in, that this was failed and I don't plan on fixing it lol)
31 - Air Conditioning (removed so go figure)
41 - Fuel Temp Sensor
The car had a distributor in the hatch when I bought it, so obviously it had been changed at least once. I swapped between the one on the car, the one that was in the car, and the one in the wrecked car multiple times. Advanced and retarded the timing little by little with each with no changes in codes or performance.
Maf has chalk writing on it so I'm assuming its from a junk yard. I swapped the tps with the one on the wrecked car last week and it appeared to help. Fuel temp sensor broke on the fpr from the wrecked car, so I swapped the sensor from the turbo car into the fpr on the wrecked car when swapping. And I have not touched the CHTS. I should mention that I'm running a TD05H 16G and have multiple vacuum leaks, but the car would start up with these problems.
The car will run on ether, but won't even attempt to fire without it. It'll turn over all day long but will not fire. Cylinders are not getting fuel. Injectors? My multimeter was messing up so I used a test light and had constant power to both wires for the injectors with the key on and off. I'll check for voltage and resistance today when I get my meter working.
Injectors, ECU, or wiring is all I can think of. Yes, I know I have problems with the dizzy not being timed perfectly and it has vacuum leaks. I'm not wanting it to run perfectly yet, just want it to run so I can continue fixing other problems.
I pulled parts off my wrecked 86 and started replacing stuff. Replaced coil, tps, fpr, crank angle sensor. Still wouldn't run. So I can codes, and got 8:
11 - Crank Angle Sensor
12 - Mass Air Sensor
13 - Cylinder Head Temp Sensor
14 - Speed Sensor (speedo cable broke so thats obvious)
23 - Throttle Valve Switch
24 - Neutral Safety Switch (assuming since I can start the car without pushing the clutch in, that this was failed and I don't plan on fixing it lol)
31 - Air Conditioning (removed so go figure)
41 - Fuel Temp Sensor
The car had a distributor in the hatch when I bought it, so obviously it had been changed at least once. I swapped between the one on the car, the one that was in the car, and the one in the wrecked car multiple times. Advanced and retarded the timing little by little with each with no changes in codes or performance.
Maf has chalk writing on it so I'm assuming its from a junk yard. I swapped the tps with the one on the wrecked car last week and it appeared to help. Fuel temp sensor broke on the fpr from the wrecked car, so I swapped the sensor from the turbo car into the fpr on the wrecked car when swapping. And I have not touched the CHTS. I should mention that I'm running a TD05H 16G and have multiple vacuum leaks, but the car would start up with these problems.
The car will run on ether, but won't even attempt to fire without it. It'll turn over all day long but will not fire. Cylinders are not getting fuel. Injectors? My multimeter was messing up so I used a test light and had constant power to both wires for the injectors with the key on and off. I'll check for voltage and resistance today when I get my meter working.
Injectors, ECU, or wiring is all I can think of. Yes, I know I have problems with the dizzy not being timed perfectly and it has vacuum leaks. I'm not wanting it to run perfectly yet, just want it to run so I can continue fixing other problems.
02-19-2010, 08:43 AM
#2
Welcome to ZDriver! 
All that happened was that it ran out of gas? That's the ENTIRE story?
Sounds like you know what you are doing, mechanically speaking, so it's either not getting fuel, or flooded. Probably not flooded since it will start w/ ether, so.... keep cycling the fuel pump.
You said you did check fuel pressure? What psi is it at?
All that happened was that it ran out of gas? That's the ENTIRE story?
Sounds like you know what you are doing, mechanically speaking, so it's either not getting fuel, or flooded. Probably not flooded since it will start w/ ether, so.... keep cycling the fuel pump.
You said you did check fuel pressure? What psi is it at?
02-19-2010, 12:09 PM
#3
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Warrensburg, MO
Posts: 5
Thanks for the welcome. Idk what caused this. My guess at first was cause it ran out of fuel. But the pump is working just fine. I have not put a gauge on the line but it covered my friends face and hair with gas, so I'm assuming its good enough ta idle. Problem is the injectors are not opening up. Today i tested the injectors and they all checked out fairly good resistance wise. The voltage going to them wasn't 12V...or my meter is screwed. Read anywhere from 9-20V. Not sure on the voltage cause I was having problems with it reading right on anything except the battery itself.
Anyway...after testing everything out and getting no where, I swapped ECUs with one from my wrecked car (86/87 NA). I got the car to fire up but wouldnt stay running. Figured this is because of using an NA computer and not a turbo computer. Sound like the ecu is fried is my assumption. Sound accurate?
Anyway...after testing everything out and getting no where, I swapped ECUs with one from my wrecked car (86/87 NA). I got the car to fire up but wouldnt stay running. Figured this is because of using an NA computer and not a turbo computer. Sound like the ecu is fried is my assumption. Sound accurate?
02-19-2010, 04:33 PM
#5
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mill Creek WA
Posts: 1,415
as I said in my reply to your post on another forum. You are obsessed with ignition problems when common sense would tell anyone else that if it fires on ether it will fire on gas so you ain't getting no gas. get a noid light to check your injector pulse. Since you seem unsure about the ecu from the ????? wrecked car i can tell you that an 86 ecu won't work with an 84 85 O2 sensor. they will start and run but puke if you drive them more than three blocks. you probably ought to read the fsm and find out a few basic facts about how the system works. Better yet figure out how an internal combustion engine (spark operated not diesel) works
02-19-2010, 05:08 PM
#6
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Warrensburg, MO
Posts: 5
Thanks hoov. The plug for the injector wires (15 prong plug) is hard to put in and pull out. I'll try cleaning it out, but I'm pretty sure that the ecu is bad since its throwing all the codes and the engine won't run.
And roger, I don't wanna be an *** because I'm new but did you read over everything I typed? I know I have spark, its not the coil or dizzy. Checked each wire. Obviously the car would not run on ether without spark. The injectors are not firing. Meaning they will not open up when trying to start the car, thus no fuel to the cylinders. The o2 sensor aint even hooked up. But the o2 sensor won't prevent the engine from getting ANY fuel. Yes it would run like crap, but it would run. Mine won't. Already explained the situation on the my lemon wrecked car. It had major electrical problems when parked and assumed ecu too, but the car still ran. And i got combustion from it. Car wouldn't idle but i got combustion, meaning I got spark and fuel. So its not spark or fuel problem, nor wiring, but ecu problem.
I have the fsm to the car. Open it up and look at her, she doesn't give alot of information about the injectors.
As the service manual describes in section FE, it shows pictures of components such as the pedal, cruise, fuel tank, pump, lines, and filter. The EF&EC shows how to run diagnostics, shows component locations, give info on what components do what, shows wiring diagrams and routing diagrams...I don't remember it once saying that when your car ran, that an hour later when it just stops running that the ECU is fried. Thats why ppl like me ask on forums like this to get an outside opinion to try and track down the problem. Not everyone's ideas were right but they helped me narrow down what the problem was not.
And where did I say that I had no spark?? Please actually read before you reply to a post. I know my cars and can figure things out myself, I ask others because it saves time by having an outside opinion.
And roger, I don't wanna be an *** because I'm new but did you read over everything I typed? I know I have spark, its not the coil or dizzy. Checked each wire. Obviously the car would not run on ether without spark. The injectors are not firing. Meaning they will not open up when trying to start the car, thus no fuel to the cylinders. The o2 sensor aint even hooked up. But the o2 sensor won't prevent the engine from getting ANY fuel. Yes it would run like crap, but it would run. Mine won't. Already explained the situation on the my lemon wrecked car. It had major electrical problems when parked and assumed ecu too, but the car still ran. And i got combustion from it. Car wouldn't idle but i got combustion, meaning I got spark and fuel. So its not spark or fuel problem, nor wiring, but ecu problem.
I have the fsm to the car. Open it up and look at her, she doesn't give alot of information about the injectors.
As the service manual describes in section FE, it shows pictures of components such as the pedal, cruise, fuel tank, pump, lines, and filter. The EF&EC shows how to run diagnostics, shows component locations, give info on what components do what, shows wiring diagrams and routing diagrams...I don't remember it once saying that when your car ran, that an hour later when it just stops running that the ECU is fried. Thats why ppl like me ask on forums like this to get an outside opinion to try and track down the problem. Not everyone's ideas were right but they helped me narrow down what the problem was not.
And where did I say that I had no spark?? Please actually read before you reply to a post. I know my cars and can figure things out myself, I ask others because it saves time by having an outside opinion.
Last edited by Kronic_C; 02-19-2010 at 05:20 PM.
02-19-2010, 10:37 PM
#7
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 341
You passed up the important part. DAIGNOSTICS. In there somewhere will be a list of what to check when "won't start"
I actually had something pretty similar happen today, except after I walked .75 mile with a 50# bag of dog food on my shoulder, then walked back with tools, spare ecu and book, mine fired up and ran fine. What I did manage to check before it decided to run fine was most of the same things you've done.
According to the FSM, the only causes left are water temp sender, thermo-time switch, and AFM. Currently I'm betting sender or time switch is producing something the ecu can't recognize, and it gives up. When the temperature cooled, it came back with spec and worked. Mine's a 79, so it's not going to be the same, but it wouldn't hurt ya to check out the theory on yours.
I actually had something pretty similar happen today, except after I walked .75 mile with a 50# bag of dog food on my shoulder, then walked back with tools, spare ecu and book, mine fired up and ran fine. What I did manage to check before it decided to run fine was most of the same things you've done.
According to the FSM, the only causes left are water temp sender, thermo-time switch, and AFM. Currently I'm betting sender or time switch is producing something the ecu can't recognize, and it gives up. When the temperature cooled, it came back with spec and worked. Mine's a 79, so it's not going to be the same, but it wouldn't hurt ya to check out the theory on yours.
02-20-2010, 12:29 AM
#8
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Warrensburg, MO
Posts: 5
And i thought about maybe it was something that would change after the engine cooled off. When I started workin on the problem yesterday days ago, it was up to operating temps. That was at 9:30 am..worked on it till 5, when I came to the conclusion that the injectors were not allowing fuel to the cylinders.
My problem I have with thinking all these sensors are malfunctions is the car has started and ran since i bought it in sept...but didnt run properly. Turbo was shot, spark plugs fouled, miss firing, timing was off...but the damn thing still ran when i got it from the junk yard. I ran it every day this week, then thursday morning it shot out on me. I swapped just about every sensor in the engine bay from my wrecked car...nothing helped it at all.
Swapping the turbo ecu for the na ecu did make an improvement...it got fuel into the cylinders, but wouldnt run more than a few rotations. I'm assuming the ecu is just shot. I pulled the injectors just for the hell of it. The tips were a dark brown, when under the o rings the tips were gray. Discoloration is cause of the amount of oil that was leaked into the intake when the seals on the stock t3 went out. But there was buildup on the tips too, and it didnt easily knock off. They started to melt or something stuck on it really well, have not examined it closely.
So I'm trying to source injectors and ecu now. Working on a tight budget so junk yards first. Looking into full stand alone, chipped, M30 w/ consult, or maybe some hybrid forum of tuning. Considering e85 if I get any form of tuning ecu. Its that or su carbs lol.
And thanks for the info. I have an 81 NA sitting outside my shop (damn thing keeps eating up front wheel bearings), so I know the similarities. Engine temp and ambient temp aint changed nothing thus far..so if junk yards cant help me with cheap/free parts, spending my money on aftermarket and going big
My problem I have with thinking all these sensors are malfunctions is the car has started and ran since i bought it in sept...but didnt run properly. Turbo was shot, spark plugs fouled, miss firing, timing was off...but the damn thing still ran when i got it from the junk yard. I ran it every day this week, then thursday morning it shot out on me. I swapped just about every sensor in the engine bay from my wrecked car...nothing helped it at all.
Swapping the turbo ecu for the na ecu did make an improvement...it got fuel into the cylinders, but wouldnt run more than a few rotations. I'm assuming the ecu is just shot. I pulled the injectors just for the hell of it. The tips were a dark brown, when under the o rings the tips were gray. Discoloration is cause of the amount of oil that was leaked into the intake when the seals on the stock t3 went out. But there was buildup on the tips too, and it didnt easily knock off. They started to melt or something stuck on it really well, have not examined it closely.
So I'm trying to source injectors and ecu now. Working on a tight budget so junk yards first. Looking into full stand alone, chipped, M30 w/ consult, or maybe some hybrid forum of tuning. Considering e85 if I get any form of tuning ecu. Its that or su carbs lol.
And thanks for the info. I have an 81 NA sitting outside my shop (damn thing keeps eating up front wheel bearings), so I know the similarities. Engine temp and ambient temp aint changed nothing thus far..so if junk yards cant help me with cheap/free parts, spending my money on aftermarket and going big
02-20-2010, 09:13 AM
#9
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 341
The problem with that is with a car like that ya don't KNOW where ya are doing that. Mine is going to get a pressure gauge on it today, and all circuits checked from ecu harness connection. I kinda like to follow a procedure and be able to eliminate things for sure, not have to constantly second guess what might be going on, which can be endless. The only reason I haven't gotten serious before is my engine is scheduled to come out and I'd hoped I wouldn't have to mess with it until it did.
On yours, I'd want to do a through FSM check procedure and get it right BEFORE I went to any aftermarket parts. Variables explode with aftermarket stuff, and it's not all that tough to get stock stuff up to snuff. Then at least you know what you have. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to non stock stuff, I bought a blower yesterday...
Mine had no power to injectors when it stopped. Positive side was fine. Ign coil negative grounding produced injector action, so it's pretty narrow what can be left, it's either ecu, afm water temp sensor, or thermo-time. Of those, water and thermo-time would seem like they could change in and out of spec sporadically the easiest. Intermittent problems can be hair pullers.
Anyhow, good luck with it, and don't let an inanimate object outsmart ya...
On yours, I'd want to do a through FSM check procedure and get it right BEFORE I went to any aftermarket parts. Variables explode with aftermarket stuff, and it's not all that tough to get stock stuff up to snuff. Then at least you know what you have. Don't get me wrong, I'm not opposed to non stock stuff, I bought a blower yesterday...
Mine had no power to injectors when it stopped. Positive side was fine. Ign coil negative grounding produced injector action, so it's pretty narrow what can be left, it's either ecu, afm water temp sensor, or thermo-time. Of those, water and thermo-time would seem like they could change in and out of spec sporadically the easiest. Intermittent problems can be hair pullers.
Anyhow, good luck with it, and don't let an inanimate object outsmart ya...
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