Preparing for alcohol...
07-03-2006, 12:57 AM
#1
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Preparing for alcohol...
So I'm preparing my car to run ethanol full time.
First thing I wanna work on is the fuel tank, since alot of the engine stuffs going to have to change anyway.
I've read that cars made from 1986 and on were made with materials that do not terribly disagree with alcohol. I'd assume this would not be true for our old junkers
The question is... what kind of coating/treatment do I need to do on my gas tank to make it alcohol friendly? Are there any newer gas tanks, or fuel cells, that would easily mountup under the car as a replacement?
First thing I wanna work on is the fuel tank, since alot of the engine stuffs going to have to change anyway.
I've read that cars made from 1986 and on were made with materials that do not terribly disagree with alcohol. I'd assume this would not be true for our old junkers
The question is... what kind of coating/treatment do I need to do on my gas tank to make it alcohol friendly? Are there any newer gas tanks, or fuel cells, that would easily mountup under the car as a replacement?
07-03-2006, 09:15 AM
#2
Big Poppa
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mission, British Columbia
Posts: 4,499
no treatment is ness. for e-85, or ethanol, the most you will have to change is the rubber parts and fuel pump, the metal stuff like the tank will be fine, just not the lines, just get neoprene lines from the parts store, or if they dont have it go to summit racing and theyll hook you up, dont try to flare our metal lines on our cars, they are dash-5 which isnt common and hard to flare up to dash 6, ive only done it 3 times successfully.
07-03-2006, 10:39 AM
#3
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So its a myth that the older tanks with a higher tin content corrode when used heavily with alcohol? Or were our 1981 tanks ahead of their time and already using 1986+ standards?
Even web sites by the E85 industry to support the drive say most fuel systems before 86 were highly corrodeable
Even web sites by the E85 industry to support the drive say most fuel systems before 86 were highly corrodeable
07-03-2006, 12:10 PM
#4
NisTuner
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 2,800
I think if they were highly corrodible then we'd have practically nothing left of our fuel systems as is. I thought they were using ethanol in regular gas anyway. I know that was their reason as to why the fuel injectors go bad. Is that they weren't designed with the use of ethanol in regular gas and it wears out the injectors internal seals or something? This is just what I've heard.
07-03-2006, 12:20 PM
#5
07-03-2006, 08:35 PM
#6
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Location: Houston Tx. Cleveland Tx. New Caney Tx. and every other Tx.
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uh yea ethanal is bad for the seals in the injectors. it start to break them down, if we are talking about the older ones. I don't know what provisions were made with the new ones thogh.
07-03-2006, 08:36 PM
#7
Big Poppa
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mission, British Columbia
Posts: 4,499
it is the rubber that gets eaten by the ethanol. it really doesnt attack metal unless its over a large period of time. e85 is only 85% ethanol, and 15% gasoline, the ethanol they have now, is only like 5% in most of our fuels
07-04-2006, 12:29 PM
#8
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Its not that the metal its self is so succeptable to corrosion. Its what the metal and the ethanol do together, in the presence of water. A breakdown occurs that forms a mild acid which is known to be bad on older style gas tanks if used over a long period of time.
Like has been stated, E85 does have 15% petrol in it that helps prevent this breakdown when water seperates out. The petrol content in it is also something that helps with rubber seals not drying out and cracking.
I'm not going to be running E85. I'm going to be runing as close to 100% ethanol as possible. So the breakdown consideration is a real concern.
Like has been stated, E85 does have 15% petrol in it that helps prevent this breakdown when water seperates out. The petrol content in it is also something that helps with rubber seals not drying out and cracking.
I'm not going to be running E85. I'm going to be runing as close to 100% ethanol as possible. So the breakdown consideration is a real concern.
07-04-2006, 04:50 PM
#9
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temecula, CA
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if you're going to go to all the trouble of converting to running ethanol then you may as well just replace the ENTIRE fuel system...front to back. Why reuse a 25 year old tank anyways thats probably already on it's way to corroding even without the assistance of the alcohol you're about to add. Just start fresh...that way you dont forget to replace something.
I do have one concern...how often do you drive your Z??? Is it so little that you feel you can sustain a healthy supply of ethanol to keep your Z on the road? Atleast with E85 there are several fueling stations in the country that sell the stuff. I find it hard to believe that you will see any more of a benefit from running pure ethanol over E85. If anything the extra gasoline will help to keep things healthy. You can only raise the octane level so high before you engine can't even burn it anymore. I'd say even the E85 is kind of pushing it as far as benefiting from it. Although I guess if emissions is the final concern then the more alcohol the better.
Of course if your Z is just a weekend warrior then I guess you wouldn't need to worry so much about how you're going to sustain it fuel consumption needs.
And the fuel system is the least of your concerns. You'll need to get an aftermarket engine managment system so you can tune the vehicle to run off of ethanol. And if you are ever in a bind and need to revert back to gasoline then you'll need a back up tuning map so you can revert the engine management back to gasoline compatible. You cant use the same tune to run both. Vehicles that can run off of both have computers that can sense what type of fuel is in the vehicle and make the compensations from there. you wont have that luxury.
I do have one concern...how often do you drive your Z??? Is it so little that you feel you can sustain a healthy supply of ethanol to keep your Z on the road? Atleast with E85 there are several fueling stations in the country that sell the stuff. I find it hard to believe that you will see any more of a benefit from running pure ethanol over E85. If anything the extra gasoline will help to keep things healthy. You can only raise the octane level so high before you engine can't even burn it anymore. I'd say even the E85 is kind of pushing it as far as benefiting from it. Although I guess if emissions is the final concern then the more alcohol the better.
Of course if your Z is just a weekend warrior then I guess you wouldn't need to worry so much about how you're going to sustain it fuel consumption needs.
And the fuel system is the least of your concerns. You'll need to get an aftermarket engine managment system so you can tune the vehicle to run off of ethanol. And if you are ever in a bind and need to revert back to gasoline then you'll need a back up tuning map so you can revert the engine management back to gasoline compatible. You cant use the same tune to run both. Vehicles that can run off of both have computers that can sense what type of fuel is in the vehicle and make the compensations from there. you wont have that luxury.
Last edited by jfairladyz; 07-04-2006 at 04:55 PM.
07-05-2006, 02:18 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by jfairladyz
if you're going to go to all the trouble of converting to running ethanol then you may as well just replace the ENTIRE fuel system...front to back.
Originally Posted by jfairladyz
Why reuse a 25 year old tank anyways thats probably already on it's way to corroding even without the assistance of the alcohol you're about to add. Just start fresh...that way you dont forget to replace something.
Originally Posted by jfairladyz
I do have one concern...how often do you drive your Z??? Is it so little that you feel you can sustain a healthy supply of ethanol to keep your Z on the road? Atleast with E85 there are several fueling stations in the country that sell the stuff. I find it hard to believe that you will see any more of a benefit from running pure ethanol over E85. If anything the extra gasoline will help to keep things healthy. You can only raise the octane level so high before you engine can't even burn it anymore. I'd say even the E85 is kind of pushing it as far as benefiting from it. Although I guess if emissions is the final concern then the more alcohol the better.
07-08-2006, 01:37 PM
#14
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Thats the only type of fuel cell I have seen. I've seen people cut through their hatch floors in the back and weld it "drop down" style and brace up the floors real good... but thats way too much work.
It would be unreasonable to take up so much hatch space for me, and to throw all that weight so high. Trunk mount fuel cell just isn't a directon I can take this project.
I need some sort of under-car storeage solution for my ethanol.
It would be unreasonable to take up so much hatch space for me, and to throw all that weight so high. Trunk mount fuel cell just isn't a directon I can take this project.
I need some sort of under-car storeage solution for my ethanol.
07-08-2006, 11:10 PM
#16
Big Poppa
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Mission, British Columbia
Posts: 4,499
all i can say is summitracing.com, they will have an application for your car, fuel cells can be hung via rods, or slung like our tanks, just phone and ask. then you can fabricate a new filler hose to the cell from your original spot. you can even get them in 22 gal versions, so the tank will be only slightly bigger than the stock tank. or you can get a custom aluminum one welded up for you!! little more cost, but you get exactly what you need
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