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ep 260z questions

Old 03-10-2003, 04:54 PM
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ep 260z questions

Yep, I'm still preparing the 260 for EP autocross competition. I've got some more questions about what I'm allowed to do and not do...

1) I want to add a 5-speed. The rules seem to indicate that the replacement tranny cannot have more speeds then the original (in this case 4) however, later on in the rules there is a reference to the fact that an overdriven gear (i.e. 5th on a ZX tranny) doesn't count as a forward gear. Anyone care to comment?

2) Can I use Ground Control's caster/camber plates (which involve hacking up my strut towers slightly)? Ground Control thinks that they are EP legal, just not ITS/BSP legal, but they are not positive.

3) Can I section the front control arms and reweld & reinforce? The rules state that I can use alternate control arms, but that I can't move the suspension pickup points (i.e., I can't redrill the crossmember to alleiviate bumpsteer). I wanted to get rid of some camber and some bumpsteer this way.

Thanks everyone, I posted before about early 240 carbs on a 260 and the information was great.

L.K.
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Old 03-10-2003, 05:22 PM
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Hades,
When I saw your previous post on the EP Z rules I thought you were talking about E Production road racing. You sure you are not preparing your car for F Prepared ? If you are going E Prepared you have more limitations , and I would have to get a GCR out to help verify a few things.

A overdrive 5 Speed is usually not counted as a an extra gear. First of all you will never go into fifth during an autocross , so not real advantage there. It does have a better 1st to 2nd ratio then the 4 speed.

If you are running Prepared then yes you can slot the strut towers. Let me know if you are going to need camber plates for your car. Erik from EMI Racing makes some of the best camber plates out there and his are $350 a set.

I will let Tom or someone else answer the control arm question.

Mike
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Old 03-11-2003, 09:48 AM
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L.K.,
Now that I know that you are going to run in E Prepared for sure that helps me out alot. This is similar to an ITS legal car can run in BSP.

I can check with Doug Piner again , since
he races E Production at the Nationals level . Maybe he can bring a few of his road race buddies over to this forum as well . He should be able to help out a lot.

I take it you are limited to the 15 x 7 and using the 23 x9.5 x 15 cantilevers as well.
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Old 03-11-2003, 10:11 AM
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L.K,
I accidently deleted your last post For some reason I had multiple posts and when I was deleting them I also did yours .

Sorry ,
Mike
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Old 03-11-2003, 12:30 PM
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more q's

Mike,

S'alright, as long as anyone follow the thread knows that E Prepared Solo II rules = E Prod Road Race rules for all practical purposes (which they do now, if they read this post and I'm inquiring as to the nuances of those rules, we're all set.

Thanks again, and one more question (for now) does EMI have a website (or phone #) where I can contact them?

-Lukas
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Old 03-11-2003, 12:39 PM
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Lukas,
Here is his email addy .

EMI Racing

He has a phone number as well , but I hate to bother him to much when he is in the shop.

He also sets up suspensions . He is the one who did the Penske struts on John Coffeys 240z.

He likes to be emailed , since during the days he is prepping Cup cars. He is a guru with the Viper guys. He also has
competed in the Rolex Dayton 24 hours race. A great guy to deal with !!!!!!!!!
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Old 03-12-2003, 07:00 AM
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EP or FP??

Unless some thing has drastically changed FP is Solo II and EP is a limited road racing class, ie cam and carbs limits. We are talking about the SCCA though….

Since LK mentions Solo II in his first post I am assuming that is the project. Speaking of assuming…..GET THE RULEBOOK!! Please do this before you spend you hard earned money and invest your time.

In FP you can run a five speed. I use a Houseman straight cut dog engagement direct drive. Quaife makes makes a unit similar to this. Houseman also is making a new unit that is pretty light. Of course you could get the OD 5 speed from a ZX.

Camber plates are legal in FP. I would not advise slotting the mount holes. Enlarging the center hole is ok though. Slotting those mounting holes makes doing it right later a real pain.

As for messing with the control arms……don’t. All you will do there is add unsprung weight. If you must make the track wider then make new control arms from tubing. Unless you change the inner pick up point, or the ball joint centerline you won’t change the bumpsteer.

Get the rulebook and study each modification you want to do. Think light.

By the time some folks do it cheap the first time, and then the “hot tip of the week way” the second time they could have saved time and money by keeping it simple and correct the first time. This sport takes enough time and money anyway instead of reinventing the wheel at every turn.

Take a look at Tom Holt’s site to get an idea about time and money. Also think about what is best for you. Do you want to be competitive and kick but? Or do you want to have fun sliding around at your cars limit? The decision you make there will greatly affect your time and money commitment.

Race safe,

Alan
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Old 03-12-2003, 10:02 AM
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Alan, thanks for the advice (escpecially on the contol arms...)!

What is Tom Holt's website address?

The post that was accidentally deleted had some further information about EP(repared, solo II) 240/260z prep that I had garnered from the rule books. I own a 2002 Solo II Rule book and the 2001 GCR. I don't have the 2003 versions yet, but I'm under the impression that things can't have changed too much (I am assuming a little here). Also My first Post on the old board about Carbs went into this a little - I.E. the PCS says 2x Hitachi-SU carbs... but then gives no further info, so I was unsure whether or not I'd be stuck with the Flat-Tops or if I could go with early 240 4-screws.

Basically, a car (240/260) prepared to e production specs (road race) may run in E prepared solo II competition, there are couple of allowances, but for all practical purposes the Solo II rulbook just says see the EP PCS specs. Minimum weight for the 260 in EP(repared) is in the 2300 pound range, so I don't see weight being too much of an issue, I'll be looking to blance more than shave off so much weight.

My rational for EP solo II is simple, There is no real competition to speak of on the local level in FP (boring), and one of the best EP drivers in the county is in our region (exciting, though maybe demoralizing). I can always run in FP if I feel so inclined.

I'm prepared to spend money to do things right the first time... I don't plan on winning squat my first season out with the car... I've campaigned in other classes before (STS most recently) and I know it takes me about 3 seasons to "get it right" (i.e. the car, my driving, etc. etc.) or close to it.

Thanks again, any advice I can get is invaluable, I don't want to spend time and money making someone else's mistake a second time

-Lukas
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Old 03-12-2003, 10:36 PM
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Hi Lukas,
Good luck with the EP route... Here is the link to my site. A lot of what I have documented there is still applicable. If you ever get tired of chasing Hondas, we could use some help chasing the Porsches and BMWs in FP !

Tom

http://www.ccsi.com/~tholt/
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Old 03-13-2003, 03:42 PM
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Hades and Tom,
I thought about this a lot last night the EP and FP Z issue. In my region there are very few FP competitors we do have
some guy named Greg Fordahl in a 914.

We do have a ton of EP guys running. It the Z can be made legal in EP by using the E Production rules . You could have a
car that you can run locally using cantilevers and the SU's , but if you ever
went to Nationals you could easily ($$$$)
change it over to FP buy upgrading your carb and wheel package. And dropping the weight down . You might not win
Nationals , but could have a fun car.

The bonus to this is the fact you could run regional Road Race. E Production and SPO classes with it

I need to get my a copy of the GCR for both Road and Solo soon.

Anyone know what HP a E Production Road Race 240 or 260 engine produces ??

I will check with Doug Piner and see what number he comes up with.
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Old 03-13-2003, 05:10 PM
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Thanks Tom. I've got a lot of information to absorb now

Mike, my rational was exactly that; I like the competition, I'm not necessarily there for the nationals trophy (though I like measuring myself against the locals...), and I can road-race the beast once it is all done.

I'm sure I'm going to have more questions as soon as stuff starts going together, but so far this forum has been invaluable.

-Lukas K.
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Old 03-14-2003, 07:41 AM
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Lukas,

I see Tom was kind enough to respond to your URL request while my DSL service was having some moments.

I think you are on the right track finding the most competition. However if you want to go to the Nationals and do well you really need to take a car in the configuration that you have the most time with. With Solo II track time being so limited you have to spend time developing the setup on what you want to do well in.

Making the change from asphalt to the National concrete surface is on issue. Then changing classes can add even more difficulty to an already challenging deal.

Going to the Nationals is an experience in itself. Being the largest motorsports event in the world makes it a special event to participate in. Either way you go will take some planning. Going up against John Thomas or Gred Fordahl will mean the most competition you could ask for.

Have a good weekend. We are taking my daughter down to Road Atlanta for the Audi Teen 2 Day Driving Clinic now that she has had her license for a week. It should be a hoot.

Alan
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Old 03-14-2003, 09:34 AM
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Alan,

As luck would have it I have, within driving distance, Oscoda, Peru (Grissom Air Base), and BAX Global (Toledo Express Airport - 2 events this year, in my back yard! National Tour and a Cendiv Series) and so I get some time on Concrete every year (not a bunch - 12-16 runs maybe, but some time).

But, I see your point on only developing for one class. I think I'll start EP and see where that takes me; if the super prepped Hondas prove to be too much for the limited prep Z, I'll Move it to FP next year (so I can redo the engine once, to FP or EP spec). I don't doubt that nationally FP is competative as all #&*%&#*, its just locally I would have only one person to compete with whose times I consistantly bested in my scrappy STS Honda. Albeit, I won my class (in the region), but I still shouldn't be running faster than FP cars. Most of the events I compete in are local, so this makes a difference to me.

"Have a good weekend. We are taking my daughter down to Road Atlanta for the Audi Teen 2 Day Driving Clinic now that she has had her license for a week. It should be a hoot." Yeee-haw! I've thought of the same thing (Don't have any kids yet, but I'm already planning for when they get their licences); performance driving schools will do nothing but make better drivers out of teens, I'm all for it.

-Lukas
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Old 03-16-2003, 11:54 PM
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Lukas,
I just got the 2003 SCCA GCR book. For the 240 and 260 they are exempt from the 2300 pound weight limit. They have to be prepared as for the PCS E Production rules like you said. This book does little to help with setting up an E Prepared 240/260Z
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Old 03-19-2003, 06:46 AM
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Having any and all rule books for you car can only help.

As far as competition goes you can always use the PAX figures to gauge your driving. With a properly prepared car you should be in the hunt for FT PAX or FTD at evey event. Providing you don't have a B Mod or A Mod car running.

In our area we have GH Sharp and Rob Faulkner running. They run in stock classes. Still using the PAX results I can measure performance.

We did have a fun time at Road Atlanta. I highly recomend the program for anyone who has a new driver in the family. Not everyone will become an autocrosser or track junkie. However most all of them will be sharing the roads with the rest of the motoring public. Getting them proper preperation will serve them for the rest of their lives.

Alan
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Old 03-19-2003, 08:38 AM
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Mike,

I noticed that an alternate transmission in EP gets me an extra 50 pounds... Itlooks like I'll stick with the stock 4-speed for now (and leave things at 2450 ) and play with rear-end ratios to see what I can accomplish. The car, with full glass and interior, weighs 2520 right now, so the removal of glass and some interior bits and the addition of a driver and cage should keep things in the right ball park. I'm setting up the suspension first and doing all the rest later, so, I still have a relatively good baseline for the stock car weight. In the end, I'll probably strip out as much as possible in the end and just bolt weights to the passenger floor to equal everything out and lower the CG.

Alan,

There are a couple of drivers in our region that are very consistent and I can guage my performance relative to theirs as well. Jack Burns is one of the notables, as well as Robert Christmas (and Robert is in EP as well), John Fessler, and Mark Somer. They all provide good measuring sticks for me; not that I don't payattention to FTD and the PAX as well.

I have the 2003 Solo II rules on order and have a friend with the 2003 CGR that I can ogle when necessary they are vaguely worded as usual, no doubt something I do is going to be illegal - hopefully it'll be something easy to undo

-Lukas
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Old 03-26-2003, 02:24 PM
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Ok, here are a few more q's for the EP crowd, or anyone kind enough to answer:

1) E88 heads - there are two different E88 heads available, Early and Late, the early ones have what appears to be a nicer combustion chamber (especially if I shave the head by about .040/1mm) and the later ones have a larger exhaust valve. Are both legal for a 260z in EP? If yes can I replace the exhaust valve/seat on an early head with the valve and seat from the late head? Any other advice on E88 heads?

2) Rear disks - Can I swap ZX rear brakes into the car, replacing the originals? I know I can replace the fronts with a ZX caliper and vented disk (this has to happen as a package, as far as I understand), if I should so choose.

3)Nylon Bushings - is the nylon bushing set-up for the T/C rods EP legal? (how about, less importantly, BSP?).

Thanks again everyone, I've a whole Z suspension on the floor of the garage and a set of EMI camber plates in the mail as well, hopefully (with the help of all the advice) I'll have the car ready by the 27th of April, in time for the first local event.

-Lukas K.
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Old 04-03-2003, 10:45 PM
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Lukas,
I am not sure on the head legality, but you can swap out rear disc set ups . Doug Piner says he is running the 280ZX
fronts and the Wilwood dynalite rears.

Bushing marterial is unlimited as far as I can remember.

I am glad you went with Erik's camber plates. Let me know what you think of them .

Mike
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Old 04-22-2003, 02:20 PM
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For the record, Erik's Camber plates are nice. Good instructions, and he's a great guy too, we e-mailed back and forth a bit about general Z stuff (and spindle pins - which I'm still struggling with).

I have the front suspension installed and it looks great. The rear suspension is coming together. I'll let eveyone know how it all turns out.

Thanks for the advice all!

-Lukas K.
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