MattD1zzl3

Hello, its a little late and i'm pretty exited, so forgive me if this thread seems kind of incoherant.





While looking for a 90's Z28, i came across this craigslist special for 1500 dollars, a '74 260Z (pictured above) . I know the main problem with these things is rusting, and original panels are hard to find, but if i dont care about making a showfloor correct car, can cheaper reproduction panels (or some other alternative) be found? The above car doesnt appear to be a rusty shitbucket, and i'm hoping a lack of paint is just a discount way to get a good mechanical runner.

Can you tell me some of the other major problems with the car, is it pretty easy to work on and maintain (compared to say, a GM sports car)? According to this guy the car "runs great" "shifts great" and "steers great", but i'll be the judge of that when i try it out. Basically i'm looking for a S30 crash course, and some things to look and listen for when i show up to buy.

I dont really have much money or mechanical knowledge, but i already have a reliable daily, and some friends who are very experienced working on GM Camaros and firebirds, do you think their knowledge will transfer over in some form into being able to help me out with this car? I'm not looking for a show car, just a fun little cruiser and running project for me to teach myself on.

Any information you can provide is helpful, including the inevitable "dont buy it idiot, you're just a poor college student" comments. Thanks!

NismoPick

Welcome to Zdriver!

We have a checklist thread for the 280zx's & it's pretty much the same for the 240z-280z: https://www.zdriver.com/forums/240z-280zxt-s30-s130-tech-tips-275/280zx-common-problems-checklist-purchase-inspection-16386/

These cars are different than GM cars, but are still simple. Make sure you buy a Haynes Manual day one... it will be your life saver. There's also online manuals too. Feel free to search our site as there is plenty of helpful info. w00t!

Niku-Sama

it looks like its already had a bit of work done, you might be supprised

snwbrderphat540

i have a 260Z already so :P

w00t w00t all aboard the pain train. haha. my brain is absolutley melted. but ummm.... 260Z had crappy version of SU carb's the non dome tops but these could be switched out already. their carbs are MUCH different in mechanism from 4barrel carbs and such the american muscle buddies would know about. plus we have an independent rear suspension setup non of that shitty solid rear axle we got OHC not pushrods and other technologies from when dinosaurs roamed the earth. these cars had FRAGILE frame rails so get a good look under the car under the carpets under the hood and under the battery and in the wheel wells. those side skirts and rear bumper are fugly the front end is sexy and is the only body mod other than a bre spoiler and fender flares that should ever touch a S30. so take em off if you buy. lol. also that interior looks like it might be getting aged. see if the floor is wet might have a leak. check the body seals. and the wiring just cause its old can get worn out and brittle so see if everything electrical works.


oh yeah and. i fawkin rock incase you didnt know

ps. my 260Z has a 82 turbo motor in it so these cars as you can see are prime candidates for some sick *** swaps. im selling mine though and hoping to make a wierd L6 power plant in my 280 or if i get enough money maybe an SR swap.... maybe.....



and dont listen to nismoprick all he does is paste links in threads and seems like a GOD around here. he's full of himself to. he's all like, im nismoprick i like men and i also like talking smack to kids that are like 7 years younger than me and im a real fancy pants i enjoy the opry plays and musicals. i especially love drinking wine coolers and watching chick flicks and crying myself to sleep at night.


true story he said that.

NismoPick

You have an 82 turbo motor in the 260z? Huh... I thought it was a mix & match mutt turbo from an n/a setup.

He left out the part where I dreamed I stabbed him repeatedly with my homemade bow staff.

snwbrderphat540

LMAO ROFL you stabbed me with a bow staff?


and the mutt turbo motor is GOD. that extra like .3 in teh CR makes a huge differece! thats like 1 second less turbo lag that you guys have and like 10 more hp!!!! haha.

MattD1zzl3

Actually, 90's camaros have very sophisticated suspensions and engine systems. The pushrods work very well because it develops plenty of power in the low to mid range, so it doesnt even need a high range! And this allows for the "cam inside block" design that makes the Chevrolet small block so compact. But different strokes for different folks i suppose. But i guerentee they are very nice, very fast cars. If the motor blows up i'm afraid you'll be looking at another V8 S30 That however, is not what i'm here to discuss.

For the carberator: does the change from the 240's carb cause a loss of power or reliability. Reliability first, power second. (Power = The most ridiculous garrett i can get my hands on) Also, i must restate: Are cheap reproduction replacement panels available? How much rust is too much?

Can you spot any problems from the pictures above? It says its missing its "Rear rubber bushing kit", i dont know what that is.


EDIT: There is no purchase checklist for the 240/260? Thats pretty much what i came here for, if its not too much trouble could someone make one?

NismoPick

Meh... anything pre 96 GM is crap. Post 96 is still crap... just to a lesser degree.

You're talking about a Garrett turbo? Hopefully not turbocharging the carb's... Go L28ET instead.

www.thezstore.com

www.blackdragonauto.com

How much rust is too much? That depends on how much $$$ you have in your bank account.

Those are tiny pics... LARGER ones would help. Rear bushings??? Well, there's the control arm bushings, sway bar bushings, and rear diff mount bushings... take your pick?


Like I said:

Major checks before you buy (which would be basically the same for any car / older car):
-Rust, Rust, and Rust.
-Wiring (like someone doing a hack job in the engine bay / under the dash)
-Tire wear
-Suspension wear
-Check all engine fluids
yada yada yada...

snwbrderphat540

i gave you a small but pretty acceptable checklist that i go by. test drive of course to. and how could it be missing rear bushings?!?!?! and im sorry but pushrods are crap. only thing they are good for is easy HG changes. and for a statement like they are good for low rpm torque that you dont need high rpms is kinda.... dull and wrong lol. its true that it is good for low rpm torque but that second half is just a bad conception. every engine unless its an airplane or diesel engine needs high RPM's to make its power.... specially for a sports car. and yeah i could say some other things but no point really yah know specially since this is a Z site.

and yeah, you want to turbo it? if so i wouldnt recomend the 260 engine, though it would be interesting, you'd have to swap the heads and such to be EFI unless you wanna make a pointless blow through turbo carb design.

MattD1zzl3

Every motor is different, what i'm used to and what you are are two totally different design philosophies. But i'm sure they both work, otherwise they wouldn't make money. But the whole "Lol pushrods" thing just makes people look ignorant. (Along with not understanding this mystery called "Proper punctuation") I cant give bigger pictures because i took those straight from craigslist. How expensive are these cars usually? Is this price tag low enough to be in definite crap territory?

http://orlando.craigslist.org/car/537816843.html

I didnt post this before because (no ****) i was worried someone would swoop in and buy it while i was researching. If it runs, steers and shifts great, i assume its in road-legal condition, but it sure looks like a car thats been sitting for years. As far as the money i have, i can barely come up with the money for this discount one, and am hoping whatever problems it has can be fixed with a wrench and a trip to discount auto parts. If it requires me to drop another $3000 into it right away then i'm not interested. But like i said i dont want a show car, i want a drivable project.

NismoPick

Buahahah! Snw just got told. He's improved a lot lately tho... gotta give him that.

Expensive is another RELATIVE word. I bought my clean 70 240z for $500, did nothing to it, & sold it for $3k.

$1500 sounds like an okay deal for this car... but it also sounds like it may need a couple hundred more dollars to get it street legal. It's up to you...

MattD1zzl3

Ahh, he knows i'm just joking around with him. I'm here to make friends not enemies

This is exactly what i'm looking for. A grand or so to buy, a few hundred dollars for little stuff and paint and job done. Does this sound realistic?

NismoPick

Sounds very realistic. See if you can haggle the price some. Check out the car in person, act barely interested, then say "Well, I'd give ya $1300 cash right now."

snwbrderphat540

if every one wants me to type perfect i can. but you have to start a poll and get a majority vote. and ill make sure i use good gramer, punctuation, sentence structure, and capitalization even. but on a forum, i dont find it necessary as long as you dont give the kind of **** that makes people ask you about what you just typed. like some of the recent newbies.


and i dont think 1300 from 1500 is very good hagling. i got my 280Z for 1800 from original 3000. and my Z32 originally 7.5k got it for 3900 :P and my 260 was ebay but i got sorta lucky. rolling chassis 1000. you should try to shoot for 1k even just judging by the the condition it seems to be in. i say that because i agree, it looks like its been sitting and the interior is pretty worn and faded looking, the rims look like they are oxidizing and is that primer or the original paint? lol. i hope it primer but even then you can dell its got discolorization.

MattD1zzl3

Its primer, click the link i posted 5 posts up. Also when i go to look at it and turn the motor over, what should it sound like? (Does anyone have a video of a stock 260Z running? Or could you take one?) What sounds should i look for? What other assorted motor, transmission and driveline issues should i look for. You said the 260 motor is bad for forced induction? I thought it was just a 240 motor with some extra stroke.

Do they run on unleaded? How do i tell the differance between minor rust and 240Z cancer death rust? I'll repeat my question from before with clarification: How much is too much rust if i dont want to replace entire fenders and panels?

NismoPick

Should sound like an car... a car that is running. These aren't UFO's. Check out google videos or youtube... tons of Z vids.

Forced induction on an n/a motor isn't usually a good idea... for many reasons. Check out the book MAXIMUM BOOST... read it, then you will understand how to build a good turbo motor. Also check out HOW TO REBUILD YOUR DATSUN OHC MOTOR and HOW TO MODIFY YOUR DATSUN OHC MOTOR.

Again, these aren't spaceships... run 87 or higher octane.

If you can poke your finger / screwdriver through the rusted panel... it's bad.

snwbrderphat540

lol, you should be able to answer many of those last questions on your own. YOU DECIDE whats to much rust. just dont get anything with rusted/crushed frame rails, why? becuase replacing them sucks ***. floorboards suck to replace but are much simplire and they make new ones anyways. and what car doesnt run unleaded other than race cars and cars from like... the 50's??? and i didnt say its bad. i said i wouldnt, or something. its just better to use the 80's 280 motor. more displacement and a bit more modern and cause i said its carb'ed a blow through design sucks! adn changing the heads just to get EFI isnt worth it. its not the specific motor itself, like the block anyways. but they do have a slightly higher CR than the other Z motors. the 260 and 240 that is.

BoulderZ

Just my $0.02, and my apologies in advance, as I know this'll be long:

First, welcome to ZDriver, and congratulations on your fine taste in cars, the early Z's are the best (so I'm biased...).

A definite "second" on the above book recommendations! They've saved me a ton of time and effort. I'd add getting a Factory Service Manual, too (CD ROM, print, whatever you want).

While actually restoring my '78, *any* rust is too much for me. While buying it, I just balanced body work cost against purchase cost and got the seller down to what I wanted to pay for a good project starting point. Fixing the rust isn't hard, just make sure you get a good price and be ready to tackle it. In my region (CO), I hadn't found a rust-free Z in 2 years so I went with just "reasonable". Rust-free S30's are rare in some states (salt, snow, etc.) and common in others (New Mex, Arizona, desert locales, etc.), and the prices vary a lot as a result. Check online ads and your newspaper to see what they're going for currently, and in your area in particular.

Rust is by far the biggest problem, but it's still pretty easy to fix. The main thing is how pervasive it is on these cars. If you see a little rust, you have a lot. Worst parts are:
rockers (inner and outer)
battery area
wheel arches (especially in the back)
hatch surround (especially the bottom)
rear lower valence / bumper filler area
"frame rail" dogleg in the front wheel wells
frame rails and floorpans, usually do to damage (dumb lift operators or would-be rally drivers)
front fenders behind the wheel, where the cowl drains on to them

Mainly, it was just the relatively new unibody design (there are a few mistakes in drainage), combined with primitive or non-existent corrosion inhibitor chemistry, and 30+ years of use on public roads, often with salt, that combine for the bad rust problems. Considering that the steel is also relatively thin (hey, cheap way to boost sports car performance), it doesn't take much to be a problem.

Take a good plastic-coated magnet with you, which well tell you about bondo as well as rust hidden by what looks okay, and a screwdriver or awl to poke at any suspicious spots. If you see paint bubbling up, there is definitely a much larger rust spot behind it, likely a rust-through. I'd be worried about the primer paint and that body kit, as they're both great ways to hide some of the worst rust problems. Just be sure to check over every square inch inside and out, up top and underneath. If there's a real problem, you'll find it with the magnet and screwdriver. Check out www.zhome.com, and look for the "Common Rust Areas on 240-Z's" link on the left scrolly menu bar. There are some great pics of just how much rust even a "clean" Z might have.

Mechanically, it should be one seriously smooth motor (internally balanced straight 6 with 7 main bearings). The L-series motors in the Z's should easily go 250,000 miles with good compression unless they were abused. Be sure to do a compression and leakdown test. If the results aren't at least pretty good, some PO abused the car at some point, and you should pay less.

If the gearbox is making noise, plan on having to do something about that soon, as they're pretty quiet when they're in good repair. If the rear end has a "clunk", you might need new U-joints in the half-shafts or maybe a diff mount. That's leverage for a hundred or two.

If the rear bushings are shot, you can use that as leverage for a hundred bucks or so (cost of a new urethane kit, which you want anyway). You'll know if they're bad: there'll be some clunky noises and they'll all look like dry-rotted rubber, or just missing entirely.

If the interior is rough, just know that getting parts for that can be a pain (not impossible, just difficult), and they're pretty fragile because they're just thin, dried out 70's plastic. A lot of them are NLA, which means parts yards and salvage vendors and swaps (like on here and other Z boards). If the dash is cracked, there are covers available (decent looking, inexpensive), or you can repair/replace the dash (perfect results but hideously expensive at about $1000, ouch).

I will warn that you should definitely stay away from the non-Nissan replacement steel. Seriously, run far, run fast. I've used them in an attempt to save money, and it totally backfired. My fenders fit so badly that we had to cut, re-weld, and re-shape them. Saved nothing in the end, and cost a lot of time. Salt in the wound: they're not that much cheaper anyway.

I got nothin' for you on carbs. Sorry. I'll leave that to the others here, who know way more about them than I do. I stick with EFI on the Z's as the carb in my truck is already one more than I want to have at my house.

In any case, the early Z's are definitely worth the time and effort as a driveable project like you describe. You'll be rewarded with a classic sports car legend that's all yours, and they're total joy to drive.

good luck,
Dave

MattD1zzl3

I'm hopeful on the rust due to it being a primered car, which makes me think in the recent past it has been down to bare metal, and why else would you do that but to remove rust?

WOW though, looking at some online sites the front marker lights alone are going to run me damn close to $200 PER LIGHT. (unless i am mistaken)
In general, parts are ridiculously expensive then?

Really sorry if these questions seem too noobish, but i honestly know nothing at all and would like to learn as much as i can before i show up with the funds.

NismoPick

Dunno where you're looking... Check out www.blackdragonauto.com Looky: (you could always get them from a junk yard too)

BoulderZ

Nope, parts aren't *usually* expensive (there are a few weird exceptions, like some oddball weatherstrips), but for every part there's usually one vendor with a shoot-for-the-moon price. You just have to shop around more than you might with more common enthusiast cars.

There're a bunch of vendors for parts (see the sticky on where to buy parts, by Z Car Barbie, in this forum). You need to get the MSA and Black Dragon catalogs even just because they're comprehensive and make great references. And your friends and family can do all of their birthday/holiday shopping for you there (I'm not kidding)! They usually have what you need in stock, and they're pretty much the most complete suppliers. But, you do pay a premium for that.

Outside of that, there are alot of good new specialty vendors in that list, and a lot of good online used vendors. Surf around the list in the sticky, and bookmark them all. That'll get you familiar with who-has-what-for-how-much. You can sometimes use local junkyards, too. Ours here in Colorado aren't great, so I don't usually bother (too much time for too little savings, for my version of that equation). I do order used stuff online a lot, though, and it's saved a lot of money and the parts are always perfectly good.

Dave

MattD1zzl3

The more i look into it, the more practical this looks. But would you experts out there be suspicous of this car at this price? or is 1500 what he should be asking for a running 260. The only cars i have to compare it to are show-car 240's. And i cant really get any information from that.

On the craiglist ad there is a blurred out area where the plate should be, which makes me think its drivable And it being primer which makes me think it had a rust cleanup. This seems almost too good to be true. In 2 days i went from being sure i was going to buy a Z28 and randomly getting a 70's datsun, lol. (but i've always loved them)

How would you guys suggest checking under the side skirts? i dont really want to show up and start demanding to tear this guys car apart But i'll definately show up with some jackstands (i dont know what you can see from the underside)

snwbrderphat540

stop with the Z28 comments, each time it comes up i gag a bit. lol


anywho. you might not be able to check behind the skirts. try however you see fit when you get there. you dont need jackstands unless you plan on working under the car. just look under it with a flash light. you can see enough that way. 1500 is a fair price if there is nothing to hide. as for primer, primer is CHEAP. so it could be a way to hide rust actually. thats why you search for it such as rippling or bubbling. usually rust cant pop through primer pretty quickly. go there. get some pictures and look around it alot. post pics up here. cause from those two pics, we cant pass judgement on its worth.

BoulderZ

For a running S30 in decent shape, $1500 seems pretty fair. It's probably going to have some rust here and/or there, but not a ton, and easily repairable, at that price. In the Orlando, FL region you've got coastal salt-air corrosion possibilities.

I'd actually be more suspicious because of the primer and body kit. That's an easy way to hide a bondo-over-rust "fix" to make it look like the body's in great shape, the same way some people use diamond plate to cover swiss cheese rust on the back lower corners of early Jeep CJs and Toyota FJ40s, and then sell them as "No rust!".

I'd be wondering why they did all the hard parts of prep and then didn't finish the bodywork with the paint and clear. That should be the easy part after all that prep work. It may be that they got all that done and they're just not interested anymore, or need cash all of a sudden, or whatever, so it's still 100% worth checking out. There's at least as good a chance as not that it's a solid car from a solid seller. Just make good use of your jack and stands, magnet, and awl/screwdriver and you'll know instantly if they're honest or if they're passing off a rust bucket under a bunch of fiberglass, bondo, and grey. Look all around where the body kit's attached, from behind/underneath the panels, and check out how the rest of the underbody looks. If it's all corroded, it's not too likely the kit's covering pristine metal.

Good luck! I hope it's a solid car and you can get it soon!
Dave

MattD1zzl3

It says "Not interested in trades, dont even ask", so that implies that they need cash in a hurry, but i dunno.

How are those side skirts usually attached? Think they can be removed on the fly for inspection, or am i really going to have to crawl under the thing to check it?

Do magnets stick to rust? Or if he primered and skirted it really well am i pretty much clueless as to if its rusted underneath?

EDIT: Durr, i need to read better, Your answering my questions before i ask them One thing i didnt ask: Can i expect this car to break reguarly every few months, requiring expensive repairs? When i was getting a Z28, this was a foregone conclusion! Also, on a british buying guide i found, i see a "260" and a "260 2+2", with 10 less horsepower, and 1 second slower to 60MPH, which one am i getting?

How easy are they to work on? Full of weird angles that are hard to get a wrench into?