Spudz

Hey Guys,
What do you think of Saner's adjustable bars ? They are the generic 3 hole type,
but thier prices are in line with the non adjustable ST bars .

http://sanerperffab.com/prod01.htm

Mike

tube80z

Too big if it's solid. Looks nice though.

Spudz

He will make it in any thickness you want .. The one shown was for my friends
EP car. I was thinking of 15/16" for my car .. Seems like stiff springs , good shocks
and smaller bars is the way to go.

Mike

tube80z

With end links and all that's a pretty good price.

Spudz

Tube80z ,
It comes with the adjustable rod ends . You do need to make your own
adjustable bracket for the control arm if you want it .

What size would you suggest ? I have been chatting wit Zlalomz about going
with AD shocks and at least #400 springs and will be shooting for the #1926
FP with 2.6 liter weight .

Mike

tube80z

Hi Mike,

I'd go for a 15/16 bar or what ever mm that happens to be (24 mm I think). If you can get it without holes and use a slider that mounts the heim in double shear. Either connect to the strut tube or weld a double shear mount onto the control arm.

Now the trick stuff. Instead of using aluminum pillow blocks or poly bushing hang the swaybar on heims. You'll need a clamp around the bar with ears to bolt the heim to. This will let the bar bow normally without binding in either your ploy or aluminum mounts. Little tricks like this add up to measureable time.

If you have the car together and can get it on a scale you can figure out your spring rates that way. You need to figure out axle weight at each end and divide by 2. Then you'll need the motion ratio (or you can use mine 0.96) to determine wheel rate. From here pick a spring that is equal the averaged wheel weight. That's probably going to be over 400 pounds. Or you can get 400s as we know those work too.

Then the first time you drive the car you'll probably go uh oh, this isn't working. But after a few events you'll start to like it a lot. Then you'll get to the point where it feels soft and mush again. Then it's time to think about going stiffer. I don't think you can go much over 1.3 to 1.4 the wheel weight. Hopefully this makes some sense to you.

When you get wheel rates up closer to the tire rate you'll find that tire pressure changes make a real difference. A good rule of thumb to see if you're in the ballpark is to check the tires. Average the inner and outer and it should be close to the middle. Since you'll be running the inside edge a little hotter (10 to 15 degrees is common) this will help you get close. Camber and air pressure get really touchy when you get the setup just right.

Remember to watch the pressure rise in the tires. As long as your air is dry and/or you use nitrogen you should see an even rise in pressure when the chassis is balanced. If one end or the other is out of whack fix it before you cook the tires.

There are a few other tricks to try too. Hopefully I haven't lost you.

Cary

Spudz

First of all the car is till in pretty much street trim. I need to start somewhere ,
and was going to orignally buy an ITS Z , but figured I probably won't be road
racing anytime soon .

I will start with your first point .

Its Just a bit under 24mm I am sure it can be purchased without the holes . I am thinking you mean for me to have the ends like this . This is a pciture from Bryans ITS car . I wish I had Vic Sias's strut mount pictures still , so I could show how it was mounted to strut . I should be able to get ends like that from Circle track suppliers .



Couldn't I use a threaded Heim ends and run them through the frame at the normal bar attachement points, but reinforce the openings and bolt the top of them to the frame rails ? Randy Ayers idea was to use the NASCAR style hollow
bar with end splines ran through needle bearings I believe and then the lever arm attached to the heims to the control arm.

One the rest of the set up I will wait until I get to that point this Summer

Thanks,
Mike

tube80z

It sounds like what you wrote would work. Take a look at the swaybar mounts on a modern Trans-Am car (one of the Jags) to see what I was talking about. I may be able to dig up a picture if this isn't clear.

The needle bearing trick will not work. As the chassis flexes they will bind. Although the hollow bar will be better at not bowing than a normal swaybar.

Hope that helps,

Cary

preith

I have a Saner (three hole) front bar on pillow blocks. I'm happy with mine, and the owner is a great guy. I wish I would have thought of the heim joints for mounts too, that's a great idea. It has heim joint's on the top and bottom for each link, which is the same as Spudz's pic. Is this what you mean by double shear? I liked the three hole for simplicity, but that rules out the heim joint mounts because of the ends, unless the diameter remained uniform.

preith

We're getting a little off subject here, but what's the general concensus on AD (Avance Design) shocks that Spuz mentioned. I seem to remember Cary mentioning how he liked them, but some suspention experts deemed them unworthy. If that's the case, what else it there, other than Penske's, which most of us can't afford.

tube80z

It is an easy retrofit. You need to make a split clamp that has ears on one side. The heim is then mounted to these ears. The base of the heim will then mount to you pillow block or something similar.

Double shear just means both sides are captured. If you look in the pic above you'll see that. If you only capture one side of the heim then you introduce an additional twist on the bar and mount.

Cary

tube80z

What's a little drift among friends? Can't help but think a bumper sticker I saw at my last autox, friends don't let friends drift :-)

I like the AD shocks but wish the compression adjuster had more range. I notice almost no difference between a single click of the adjuster. I do notice a change from 1 to 3 but that's it. The rebound adjustment works very well and I really, really love how the digressive valving works.

I think if you could get a cheaper koni valved with a digressive piston you'd have as good a shock. Dennis Hale mentioned someone to me (can't remember the name) that told him they could make him custom konis for less with the same characteristics.

It may have been my post talking about the shock guru. He was less than impressed with the AD shocks. When I asked what he recommended he told me Ohlins T44's. When I asked price I found out that these cost more per shock then my entire suspension with AD shocks. So I think per dollar spent the ADs aren't bad and a better deal may be possible with some custom Konis.

Cary

preith

Thanks Cary. So technically my 3-hole bar does have double sheer, but it's not as easy as you say to convert the mount. As stated earlier, I don't see a way to do the heim joint mount because there's no way to slide it over the end of the sway bar.

My car is currently set up with softer springs and thicker swaybars. Back when I bought the parts, this is what Ground Control reccomended. Plus I have Tokico Illuminas, which I read don't respond well to sping rates over 300 lbs. I'm pretty green in the driver's seat, so my plan is to run it like this for a while, get a little more comfortable, and then switch to the smaller bar (with heim joint mount), higher spring rate set up that you speak of.

The koni's sound intreging, I'd like to know more about them, but I don't know any of the properties of the AD's.

tube80z

You don't slide the heim over the bar. A split clamp goes on the bar that the heim attaches to. This will work with any bar this way. The big boys do just the opposite. The use tubular bars and thread the heim into the bar and then it hooks to a set of ears on the car.

Take a look at http://www.rorty-design.com/images/saddle_clamp01.jpg and add http://www.rorty-design.com/images/shock_brkt03.jpg and you'll have what I'm taking about.

Cary

preith

Thanks Cary, brain fart, that makes sense. That's definetly something I'll have to consider.

Phil

Spudz

Cary said :

I am going to forward this on to Erik Messley from EMI Racing to see if he can do this and at what price .

Mike