Hi all!


I was just wondering if one can heel&toe with the standard ZX manual type pedals?

A buddy recently visited me and he had got new clutch and brake pedals for his BMW 325i, when I got in his car and checked out the pedals, I found that the setup looks very similar to the 280zx, a long gas pedal that goes to the bottom of the floor, clutch and brake pedals were similar. But the gas pedal was SO MUCH further in and down, that even with the car standing still I could NOT perform any heel & toe moves what so ever, even if I twisted sideways and rested on my left hip bone looking out the side window.. simply because the gas pedal was located so much further in than the brake pedal :S So therefore I found it a very important question to ask.

I`ve seen sports pedals for 280zx at the z store, which they claim will give you the ability to heel and toe, but the pedal position will still be the same so I fail to see where that argument fits in.

With the financial side for a ZX purchase almost completed, I almost completely forgot to ask this question, I just never thought it would be a problem because the pedals seemed good. But now I know that even the slightest inch can make heel & toe impossible in a real life car, contrary to my Logitech G25 wheel setup for Gran Turismo 5, even with the worlds coolest looking pedals theres a huge difference.. so..

Edit: With heel & toe I mean even toe & toe (Rolling foot over to the gas pedal, which I also tried on the BMW, and proved completely and utterly impossible because of the sheer in-ward distance from brake pedal, even when fully pressed, to the gas pedal.)

So if anyone has any information regarding this I would be very very grateful! I`d very much prefer to do heel & toe/toe&toe (You know what I mean, revving while braking and downshifting in general.) instead of just braking while downshifting and waiting for the car`s speed to match the rpm to take my foot of the clutch and then get thrown forward in my seat because the rpm`s didnt match after all... A feeling which I hate because it feels almost like a negative turbo and it feels like the drivetrain is going to snap at any moment..



Sincerely Yours

RvH

 

I think you'll be fine with the standard pedal setup. I'm able to heel-toe while driving, and I have not done anything to the pedals. Granted it's still easier to pull off the technique in my 510, but the zx isn't too bad. If you find that the gas pedal is too low, you can add one of those "sport" pedals to just the gas pedal to raise it up a few mm relative to everything else which will make it easier to blip the gas.

 

That sounds good! add a sports plate to the throttle ought to definitely make things better! if its still alittle off, take off the rubber on the brake pedal.. And to make sure distance in between is not too big, offset the throttle plate to the left.. and grind the original one sticking out on the right.. Yes.. thats a plan.. thats good..

Thx for your help!

 

i found it easier with my 79 to properly heel toe. my 82's pedals are much closer together and when braking i hit the gas, or when downshifting i hit the gas too much. i can heel toe with stock pedals on both, and with covers on them.

 

i never try to heel toe it, 14 size shoes make thing rahter difficult

 

Sounds reasonable indeed!

I watched ur AutoX2 video Shady, and I see what you mean, your left foot braking and heel & toe downshifts are indeed the real thing (Ur driving is good btw!! I saw no flaws in your driving.) Sick sound on your 79 as well! A sound which I hope to acquire in my 82 some day Edit: Watching your X2 vid for the second time I found out why you had such a sick sound on your zx hehe, I was wondering why it sounded so much different from the other vids. I wonder if the guy that made your exhaust is having nightmares from your previous visit by now :P


Heel & Toe is still possible even if you cant do exactly what the word says, as long as pedals has relatively short distance between eachother and are almost completely synced when it goes for distance between the torpedo wall and the pedals (In line so to speak.) watch Ayrton Senna`s Honda NSX test on Suzuka, he uses his left toes for braking and right toes for gas, and even maintains the rev throughout the break and downshift as if it was everyday driving

 

You could try an actual heel toe, not ball-of-foot toe <_<
Of course, it's harder

 

Well, yeah, assuming I want to set up for a feint move for a, or a, speed drift, the bottom of the dashboard wont be in the way of my knee when I perform that action, or the brake pedal travel length to sufficient braking is achieved wont be to long (My heel wont be able to reach the throttle.) or to short (Not enough braking band to play with, harder to get used to, and might get my car wrecked before I ever find out of it.) But I like the ball-of-toe better because.. Okay I`ll just have to say: Watch Ayrton Senna`s Honda NSX tests at Suzuka ( links: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwaCjLg8MY
or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAwJs...eature=related )


If I may summarize:
He keeps the braking to a minimum and the rev match up to a maximum using ball-of-toe. On the other hand you can also certainly see that he was a throughout F1 driver due to his steering work, and indeed a notable kart driver due to his accelerator work coming out of the apex, playing with the throttle to get the best torque band when setting up for full acceleration when his outer tires are near/on the road shoulders! Which is indeed an important technique to remember, or even a factum, if you accelerate while still turning out of the apex you will get a slide, slide means loss of speed and torque, loss of speed means time lost, loss of torque means longer time to pick it up, thus further loss of initial max speed before braking for the next corner, and therefore even more loss of time. All of this is why I think that actually, Ball-of-toe would be the better technique for time-attack, whereas heel & toe would be aimed at, and well suitable at that: Speed drift, or, drifting for speed, Keiichi Tsuchiya refers to it as Super drift.. From what I have seen of KT`s technique, he is: Braking using all of the brakes while he steer`s (Setting up for the drift.) thus shifting the weight, then as, or right after, he pushes the throttle with his heel, in order to revmatch, press the brakes again, to initiate the drift, and then have the full torque band available to continue the drift as he drifts, puts his foot on the gas again. And controls the drift with the throttle, instead of Senna`s fine tuning of throttle and brakes.

At that, I must say that I do not hate drifting at all, it is just as much a motor sport as any other. And my above view on the subject remains my own, and is not meant to offend anyone.

And I must point out that my favorite drifting is speed drifting with as little smoke as possible, which many dont think is as cool to watch, contrary to the tire-burning and down-right car abusive drifts where theres so much smoke you can hardly see the cars coming out of the apex.. Doesnt take as much skills to drift with a high-powered car as a low powered car does (Which is the point at which the risks are very clearly separated from the pure fun, more speed, bigger risks, greater skill needed, the american-japanese man, Ken-something, couldnt get a low-powered Miata to drift, simply because of the higher speed and more fine-tuned technique and skills needed, but he turns his mustang very well, whereas KT and his gang drifts just about anything on 4 wheels. Therefore, again, I must point out, that to me, speed drifting looks more matured, skilled, and controlled than the average 20-100 kmph 90 degree sideways drift.)

Wow this turned out to be a book, but hopefully as said above, I`m not stepping on any toes here, as these are merely my opinions and understanding of things.

RvH

 

yeah my dad taught me heel toe, hes a trucker, they use it all the time i nthe rigs to downshift. i also double clutch on my downshifts too. i should really put a camera on my feet. i more roll my foot due to lack of space when i do it, the zx's pedals are nice and close to roll. on pick-up trucks i twist my foot and actually use my heel. and yeah i like my exhaust, i actually got the msa kit and installed it myself, i left the last clamp looseish, as to not squish the pipe so i can change mufflers/ straight pipes to what i feel like.

heres a really good example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6UXHqngdxI

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klMur...eature=related

 

Yeah, Truckers are indeed the legendary, yet, for many, the unknown masters of clutch and shifting!
Race drivers race maybe 2-3 times a month, Truckers hone their skills on 2 week continued travels on the road per month or something like that in comparison.

That last vid is KT driving his N2 group racing spec Toyota Corolla AE86 Levin Hatchback some 10 years ago, now its even more modified to the point of just resembling an ae86.

I`m going to go a little (A lot of.) off-topic now because the subject is interesting:


The reason I want a 280zx right away is because: Since 1970 and up to the mid 1980`s Nissan has been pretty much the sole cheap-solution (Compared to other brands.) for many western racers, both on the track and on the street, and has remained largely competitive up to this date. The level of knowledge and competence as for Nissan cars within many garages and workshops, here in Norway, remains very high. Hence making more or less advanced modifications and troubleshoot the reason for the ZX to be the wiser choice, despite the rarity of the 280zx here. That, plus the good sides of the ZX, I believe you know what I mean, how often has your ZX slided out of the track or road as you drive fast? Might not be the lightest RWD out there, but its got a good, to near perfect, if not damned perfect, weight distribution, and is a largely stable grip-type platform, and it looks incredibly cool

If I would/could be able to speed-drift a little with the ZX, that would be awesome too, but looking at most posts about the subject, the ZX is a largely unsuitable platform for this. (I have seen only one drifting 280zx, and thats the "abusive" kind of drifting which I`m not too fond of.) But as said, my main reason to buy it is because of its high grip abilities even with the standard suspension. I`m not worried about tire wear despite that the ZX does a lot to the tires in order to not slide, as I will be trying to perfect a technique I learned from FWD car racing: Try driving with one hand (Not saying that I am going to.) But the principle is the same, using a limited amount of steering, only accelerate when your steering wheel is pointed at near 0 degrees as you are coming out of the turn, thus saving the tires. and even when accelerating, to be careful not to spin the rear wheels..

And in these kind of techniques and opinions lays, largely, the secret of consistency in lap-times and what I like to put in my "book"/preference of mixed but intelligent orthodox/unorthodox driving. While passionately pushing the gas pedal before even coming out of the turn, and taking reckless risks on the track and the road might lead to a win only by the circumstances, in my opinion I think technique, patience, as well as style, is how the battle is won.

Theres a reason I stopped watching WRC rally: Years ago you could see their pedal and shifting techniques, nowadays they put in sequencial gearboxes, put in no cameras to show pedal work, and all they show are the rally cars on the outside as they conquer the corners or a boring sequence of the driver turning the steering wheel and clicking the sequencial shifter..

Again the little disclaimer: No intention of offending anyone or anything, only to share my views with others

RvH

 

Yes, I heel and toe on all my Z cars on track and sometimes on the street for practice. But as Shady mentions, it's more of a foot roll rather than a "real" heel and toe maneuver.

 

Actually I should have stopped saying things at the beginning (Which I also did, but still wrote a lot of stuff upon the further wrap ups.) because my question has already been answered by some of all the helpful and nice people on this great forum, and not for the first time either might I add!

The Z`s and ZX`s are obviously fully "compatible" with heel & toe (Foot roll ) Which I am really glad to hear! I can only conclude that it seems many European car makes, (BMW largely included it seems.) are just not meant for heel & toe (And this is also rather self explaining, looking at western foot cam`s, very few are actually using heel & toe techniques, therefore the fore mentioned brands never implemented such pedal positions, but rather concentrated on general brake control.) Thus my worry was, all though well founded, now utterly put at ease!

That said, yes, if any one of you have the opportunity to, please do put up some videos of Z or ZX footwork of your driving! This would surely help many beginners and veterans alike, depending on their style, to grasp the basics of heel & toe work of their future or already owned Z or ZX! In fact, I am almost at the verge of urging you to do so!


Sorry for eventually taking this thread into a discussion of advanced drivers technique rather than ZX exterior/interior appearance at the end! But I learn a lot about the ZX through exactly these kind of talks, to date I have not found much information about pure ZX driving techniques (Considering the specific car is from 1982, 27 years old and has been produced in big numbers, it exists in mere 3-4 examples here in Norway, and thus first hand experiences are indeed very very hard to come by as you may imagine!!)

Thx again everyone!

RvH

 

hey its all good rvh, its 280zx section, so we kinda go off topic all the time, but for the most part it bang on. its kinda funny, i shift every time on the street like this now, just as habit. ppl look at me funny sometimes. ive had ppl stop me and ask how i reved the engine without letting off the brakes!! they thought there was a lever (which ive seen in 5.0L mustangs) installed. the lever is used by hand!! it goes to the stick shift and moves with it, all the driver does is press down on it to kick the gas, instead of using his foot. turns out in the mustang, you can actually heel toe, but the drivers dont seem to be that talented.

 

heel toing is so over rated. who wants to downshift that much anyway. just use the brakes!

 

Yah hehe, I can see why, since maybe not so many people own ZX`s with such passion as the many Z owners.

Personally I dont like hard braking before switching gears so much, better to conserve tire, which is why "heel & toe" (In its essence.) is/seems a little better to me, but thats each his/her taste!

And you are correct shady, there is such a lever, I think its called transmission brake, a buddy I know owns a Charger (Very rare for a Mopar to be around in this area.) with a 440 BB and 727 auto tranny, And he said he used the tranbrake to do burnouts right outside the convenient store further up in the valley

I totally get what you mean about heel & toe in public, lots of people just dont know it or know what its good for, and it looks weird for them, cool to hear that you got some attention on that area

Talking about Z`s and ZX`s:
My previous apartment host owns a completely white, 240Z 74 with a RB26DETT, currently running at 574.5 HP God would I wake up many a time to the sound of that thing when it was started up... Actually my buddy with the BMW (Which I am also about to go out snow drifting with due to the perfect 10 cm layer that has just been given to us by unknown forces.) also was my roommate in the very same house, and we were unlucky enough to be riding with the owner in his Z (Of which owner also so happened to be our apartment host.) on 2 occasions, When he floored it along the 2 mile long stretch not long after he had it dynoed.. And one of his neighboors also owns a 240Z which he wanted to put a RB26 in, I left the apartment and school due to economical problems, before I heard anything more concrete about the other Z project, but recent rumours about a stone-black S30 over there with an engine sound that is indeed conflicting with the original S30 sound are indeed circulating...

Theres going to be some very tough competition at night around these parts indeed

This couldnt turn more off-topic so I`m just going to continue:
Recently I also got a good offer on a 84 model AE86 sedan which got the whole rally workover and still eligible for daily use, and I was lucky/unlucky enough (Depending on how you look at it.) To find a vid of the previous-previous owner taking it around the track a couple of times: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCAfSbih9wY god that has to be the most aggressive 4AGE weber feed I ever heard!

Things that needs to be done before its next emission/inspection is replace uniballs, fix the exhaust valves, and fix the fusebox which, according to the owner melted while he last drove it. And re-balance the brakes, at the moment its simply a braking wagon (I think I`d go with new brakepads and calipers while I was at it.) Car should work fine otherwise tho, looking at the way it was treated, obviously something had to go wrong.. Good thing with the car is that it is an ae86 (Which was not sold here in Norway, so its not an unknown car but its not circulating by the thousands either.)
And I get 3 spare engines, 2 trannies, and tons more stuff with it, and as said, it has had the whole rally workover, roll-cage, bucket seat, rally type dashboard, seem welded chassis, etc, etc.. Even the traditional twin weber DCOE 45`s arent missing... If I buy that car I`m going to be having some things to do indeed, which, overall might not be such a bad thing, I heard the 86`s are easily maintained, cheap insurance too (Despite its rarity, Corollas are treated generally by insurance companies here, I`m talking 100 buck insurance every year for a beginners first car with 20 percent bonus and casco, fire, break-in, etc etc ..), so might not be too bad a first car for me. Also found a JDM garage that I could reffer to as for parts.. The car overall might give me good experiences to take with me when I get a ZX. The offer is tempting, because of the many advantages (Plus its an 86, who havent dreamt about owning one..) But we`ll see..

Wow this became my third "chapter" here so might as well shut up for now hehe.

RvH

 

I have anything important to add except that Senna is the man You don't see throttle modulation like that often.

Oh...and I also use the "foot roll" in my 240Z.