2DLogic

Hi all, I'm new to the forum and the Z scene in general, though I've been a long time fan.
Recently I've started searching for a twin turbo Z32 for a project car that my father and I can work on together. He's getting older and we really have nothing in common except cars, so this is a bit of an effort to reconnect with him and a bit of an effort to obtain one of the cars that I've always dreamed about owning.
I'm somewhat knowledgeable when it comes to automotive work, enough to do regular maintenance and a bit more. My father knows much more than he gives himself credit for having built several dirt track race cars from essentially the ground up. I also have two friends who could help me with certain aspects as well, one which is ready to get his ASE Master's certificate and is co-owner of his own transmission shop. I'm also fortunate enough to live in the metro Atlanta area and am fairly close to two very reputable Z specific shops, ZCar of Atlanta and of course Z1 Motorsports in Carrollton; this is another reason I've chosen the Z32 platform for my project build.

Now... on to what I'm looking for. As I said, this will be a project car, nothing that I will need for a daily drive. My dilemma is that it seems there is very little middle ground as far as finding TT's, which are rare in the first place. From my searching over the past few weeks it seems that you either come across cars that have been ragged out and poorly maintained or cars that have been someone else's projects and are now up for sale at a massively inflated price, due to the owner trying to recoup costs of their builds...

Now I'm not in any hurry to buy something right away, honestly I don't have the amount of money saved up that I would like to put down at the drop of a hat, but I wouldn't be opposed to getting a small loan if I found something at a good price.

I hope to be able to post up some info on the vehicles that I'm looking at and get some feedback from some members who have more experience that myself about purchasing Z cars.

My mechanic friend and I went to look at one TT yesterday, and as soon as I collect my thoughts on it I'll post up some info and hopefully can get some feedback. It is one of those that looked decent in the ad, but upon closer inspection is [I]very[I] rough, but the guy is in a hurry to sell and I think I might be able to pick it up much cheaper than he is asking.

Anyway... thanks for reading and any future help or advice offered.

Daws37

Well for starters if you have a friend who knows about cars well bring him along with you when you see cars in person. I did that with my friend, he's an ase master tech and i brought him along to see if it was a good buy and talked the dealer way down on price for a stock 90' z32 n/a. But be prepared to spend some money to get things rapaired I'm working on all the things that happen to go wrong all at the same time and I've had it for 2 months and already put 3K into it. Eventhough i don't care because ive wanted a z32 since i was 15

2DLogic

So after talking it over with my mechanic friend and comparing notes, this is what we have on the car we checked out this past Saturday:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/cto/2907358267.html
-No paperwork on engine or transmission swap
-Power steering doesn't work
-Passenger power window doesn't work
-A/C doesn't work
-Kickback in 3rd gear. Synchros not lined up?
-Cracked windshield
-Minor body dents, rust spots, seals should probably be replaced
-No coolant reservoir, Prestone bottle zip-tied to front bumper
-Possible oil leak
-Stock boost gauge doesn't work, AEM TruBoost controller dangling in engine bay
-No oil pressure gauge
-No mufflers. Owner says they were stolen...
-Miss in the engine, owner says it's due to crappy spark plugs
-Turbos are either weak or running low boost
-Rats nest of wiring
-Interior is trashed: missing bezels and panels ripped seats, stains, ect.
-Rear wing is cracked. I don't care about this because I prefer the cars with no spoiler, but it is indicative of how they've cared for the car.

Alright, so the car sounds like a steal at $5000 right!? lol The only reason I'm even considering this is because the car does seem to run and shift smoothly (aside from the miss and problem in 3rd) and I feel like with the guy wanting to get rid of the car pretty quickly, by the end of the weak he says... I might be able to get the car for cheap. After talking it over with my mechanic friend who says an offer of $3000 would be generous, I'm thinking more like offering $2-2500.
-Just for information KBB on a 92 (KBB won't go to 91) 300ZX TT with 245000 miles in Excellent condition is $5K, Fair is $3.9K, I honestly don't even consider this to be in Fair condition.

I understand that this car would basically need to be torn apart just to be made to run safely, my question is: Assuming I could snag the car for cheap would this be worth the $2500, maximum, for essentially a running TT shell or should I run far and fast from this possible money pit?

Rupe

I'm with you in asking $2000ish, that's a long list of crap to deal with and judging by your notes and his ad, he wasn't being very up front about anything.
Back to your first post though, you said you want a project car so if you can get the car for less than half what he's asking then it'd be a pretty interesting project. You'll basically get to re-do everything but have something that's still running in the meantime. That car will be a money pit, but hey, what's new?

2DLogic

Well I made the offer of $2500 today, prefacing my message with the kbb value of an excellent condition Z with that many miles being $5000, fair with all systems working being ~$3800 and an approximate cost of what it would take to simply make the car pass emissions and be safe to drive on a regular basis and the owner responded with...

"No thanks, that is way too low".lol
I thanked him for his time, wished him luck with the sale and told him to contact me if he changed his mind.

The hunt continues.

Yardjass

You could also try buying an NA in good condition and adding a twin turbo swap to your build. I bought an N/A for 5 grand that had 66,000 original miles on it for and was in fantastic shape other than dents from vandalism. If it was TT, my car would have cost two or three times that because of the low miles and now I can put that money into swapping it and upgrading it.

Normally, people say this isn't advisable because it tends to cost more to do the TT swap than to just buy a TT to begin with. In your case though, it seems you're looking for something to work on. An immaculate or nice TT goes for big bucks. A similar NA doesn't and is great grounds for a project car IMHO. (and it is so hard to find a really nice stock Z32 of any kind so you should scoop any one that you don't have to pay through the roof for up as soon as you spot it)

Anything like the car you were looking at isn't advisable at all. There's too many loose ends and it'll add up real quick. Plus, if you notice, most of those problems could be solved by replacing the engine and tranny, which you would if it was NA. Cost estimate for a TT swap is around 4 to 6 grand and that's with labor costs. You can cut at least 2k of that doing it yourself and I've heard of people that have paid not much over $1,000 to swap their car because they sold old, unneeded parts and were very smart about buying the new ones. Plus you're doing something more exciting with your dad than just finding oil and coolant leaks and cleaning electrical connections.

Anyway, just a thought. That's what I'd look for if I were in your situation. Good luck with your hunt and we all expect to see pictures if you find something :P

mrjjones323

Hi all, just wanna say that im new here and thanks for being awesome!
But plainly IMHO you should go ahead and find a healthy (for the most part) running N/A that hasnt quite been molested or overly altered. I beleive the simple fact that a stock Z reborn into what you and your father rebuilt will be worth the move. more or less i guess its like instead of fixing a fighters broken hand, youre teaching the man how to fight in the first place lol. i dont mean to go all hippie bro but considering why you guys are hunting this thing down to begin with... ....sloppy seconds dont deserve the motive behind your hunt, especially if some guy asks 5 stacks for something he slowly abused.

By the way, im def gonna follow this build bro keep us posted!

Yardjass

Haha, I like the way you think Jones.

Seriously though, look into it. There's other benefits too. No stupid HICAS system or adjustable suspension to have to remove. I don't like the rear wing vice the clean look either but that's personal taste.

Also, try to get one that somebody put a vented front fascia (TT, jspec, other) on if at all possible. If you don't, that's another 600 bucks onto the cost of the swap. That is, unless you can find an undamaged used one but good luck with that.

2DLogic

Yardjass, I had considered doing the TT conversion myself. I have however read many many reports of people regretting now spending the money to pick up a TT in the first place once they get done with the cost and hassle it can be to find all the parts needed to do a full conversion.

As you said, I am looking for this to be a project, but if I can ultimately save a couple thousand by getting a TT from the get go then I really can't see going the other way. No doubt though, it would be extremely satisfying to "train my fighter" from amatuer to pro as Jones put it.

Not saying that I'm completely closed to the idea, but I like the idea of being able to dump $3-4k directly into upgrading a TT engine as opposed to spending that on doing an initial conversion and then upgrading later, or having to wait potentially years to have the cash to do all the engine work at the same time as the conversion.

Is the HICAS system really that bad? In the 3000GT scene, which is where I've been for the past few years, the VR4 is loved almost as much for the all wheel drive/steering as it is for the twin turbos. I understand that Z's are RWD as opposed to FWD, like the non VR4 3000GTs, but does it really pose such an issue that people remove it; is it seen as not providing enough benefit for its weight?

I also understand some people actually swap N/A rear differentials into TT's because it has a lower ratio which helps with stronger more stable take offs at the cost of a slightly lower top speed.

As for the front fascia, I plan on eventually putting a front mount intercooler with the Extreme Dynamics Type G bumper; the one pictured in this thread: https://www.zdriver.com/forums/300zx-z32-appearance-exterior-interior-50/what-front-bumper-34687/
So all in all I'm not too worried about what is on the car initially.

I check Craigslist and Auto Trader daily and have a couple more prospects to look into this week. I was also told that one of my father's friends has a red manual N/A with around 150k miles and "timing issues" that he may be willing to part with for around $1000. Gonna try to get a time to check it out, possibly next weekend.

Don't worry about pictures. When I get this project going, ie. car in hand. There will be a daily log of any work done. I love reading other's build logs, not just about cars either, and always hope that mine can be of help to others doing similar projects as well.

Daws37

Defintly interested in this build can't wait until you find the right one to start working on.

Yardjass

The way to go if you choose to do a swap is to get a JDM front clip or an American TT that has either been rear-ended or wrapped sideways around a pole (so the front isn't damaged). I still maintain that is a cheap way to do it but cheap is dependent on you doing the work yourself and being able to sell off the parts you don't need. Even that $1000 dollar NA is still only up to 5k if you get a more expensive clip, 4k if you find a cheaper one. Replace the fuel pump, knock sensor, engine mounts, wiring harness and get an ECU reflash, and you're in what? $1500 (maybe less)? They suggest doing all of this stuff other than the wiring harness, which is on a case by case basis but then they're all new, which they wouldn't be if you bought a TT. You could do larger injectors while your at it and have those brand new too.

Some people don't like the JDM front clips. They say the engines pop easily. Others love theirs and swear there's nothing wrong with them. You should look into that and decide for yourself. In any case, you're in about $7500 max with an engine that has less than 80,000 miles and a car that weighs less than a stock TT, has a bunch of new parts and that you know your way around pretty well with a wrench because you've just given it a heart transplant.

On the HICAS, all I've heard is it adds some weight and doesn't really do anything except make the handling feel wierd. Stillen makes a bracket designed to eliminate it and many people do take it out. That's all I needed to hear.

On the diff, I know it will make you quicker as long as you can hook up. It kind of makes me wonder what good it is since the car is already pretty good at spinning its tires. Probably won't help launch, will make you quicker once you hook up and then slow you down as your speeds get higher. There may be a benefit with some wider wheels and performance tread.

Yardjass

Oh, I almost forgot. If your engine is out you'd be crazy not to use that opportunity to replace the heater core. $160 from the Nissan dealership. You can probably get one cheaper somewhere else.

2DLogic

Interesting... I'll have to look into the HICAS system a little more and see how my opinion sways on it.

The knowledge gained, new parts, and ending up with a lower millage engine are all very good points. As are possibly recouping cost by selling off unneeded parts. As I said, I'm not closed to the idea. Its another factor to look into that I'll be pondering over as I continue to hunt for the perfect Z.

Thanks for the continued input.

Yardjass

Haha no prob. To be honest, I'm still not sure if I made the right choice or not. The updated parts and the fun of wrenching on it are gonna be great but I sometimes I think I could have just bought a decent TT cheaper and gone from there. Then I remember they're really hard to find in good shape. Then I think well yeah, but it is possible but then I remember mine was in great shape. It just keeps going in circles like that.

Honestly, the only real solid piece of advice I can give you on this choice is if you are lucky enough to find a really nice one, TT or NA, jump on it.

Yardjass

Some of those JDM clips are great. They say 80,000 miles max but its all luck of the draw. You could end up with one with 30,000 or even less. Too bad you can't really ask them to pick out a really low mileage one.

2DLogic

Well I can't seem to get any straight answers about the $1000 N/A with timing issues so as far as I'm concerned that one is out of the picture.

I've been reading up on the HICAS system and people's complaints about it. For the most part people's issues seem to be potential unpredictability in high speed cornering due to the varying speeds at which the system can engage, the additional weight, and the fact that it is something else that can/will eventually wear out.

Most of the comments about "floaty" steering seem to come from people who want to drift their Z's. This is something I'm not too worried about because I have no interest in possibly warping the frame of my future T-Top coupe, or installing a roll cage to prevent said warping.

The additional weight and money to eventually repair or remove is something that concerns me, but if I do end up finding a decent TT I think I could eat the cost to get a removal kit.

Unfortunately I don't think I'm going to be able to go look at any thing this week/weekend due to plans with friends and the girlfriend.

So for the, online, hunt continues.

2DLogic

Alright, so another prospect up for input.

1990 300ZX TT
$4700 OBO
"The car has good sound system....
Custom sound system with custom trunk
Has upgraded 3inch downpipes to a 2.5 inch exhaust
Short shifter from concept z....
Upgraded clutch 6 puck
Has racing seats tenzo
No engine leaks to ground of frame"

I talked to the seller earlier today, he was at work and didn't have a lot of time to talk, but I did get a few questions in...
The car has 130K original miles. No swaps, no rebuilds.
KYB Struts.
Transmission is good, no grinding, pulls strong.
No oil leaks.
Stock boost
Greddy exhaust.
Cats have been removed. Which is fine since my county doesn't require emissions.
Jim Wolf ECU upgrade.
T-Tops don't leak.
Tenzo racing seats.
Full Wings West body kit, front bumper and nose panel unpainted for some reason. The front and rear bumpers and nose panel will be swapped for sure, most likely the side skirts will be as well.
Eventually an Extreme Dynamics Type G front bumper, TwinZ Type II rear bumper and Type I nose panel will go on. Possibly being paired with some Kaminari side skirts.

Unfortunately the seller said it "sputters" around 5500rpm due to "catonation(sp?)" due to the turbo spooling too fast and forcing too much air too quickly. This I've never heard of and can't find anything about online. It kinda sounds like detonation/knock, but he said its not that. I really have no idea what this means.

After a short conversation the guy had to get back to work, but I have an appointment to see the car this Saturday and will post impressions upon returning. Thoughts?

Yardjass

Cavitation maybe? I thought that only happened to pumps and boat propellers but maybe it is possible in air. If that's what it is, you're probably looking at a turbo rebuild or replacement.

Rupe

If it was cavitation it would be the the combustion chamber and cylinders, no? I didn't realize cavitation could occur in non-hydraulic systems but according to wikipedia it can happen in engines too. If the engine does indeed have cavitation, it kind of sounds like an engine swap would be necessary if it's bad enough. Can't just weld the pitting and grind it flush unfortunately.

Yardjass

^^^ Haha, that's news to me. I though it only happened on propellers and impellers. Whatever it is, something is either causing or allowing a back flow. Sounds difficult to narrow down.

2DLogic

Alright, so after looking at the car this past Saturday and talking to the guy even more I think I understand the "stumble" issue the car supposedly has. I now think it's an issue with turbulence screwing with the MAF. Apparently Z1 recommended the guy try the flower pot mod (TwinTurbo.NET: Nissan 300ZX forum - Dual Intake Filter Baffle Fab: Resolves stumble/hesistation.) which has almost stopped the problem. This seems to be a common issue in TT Z's with aftermarket bumpers which allow a lot more flow to the pop charger intake.

As with most Craigslist ads the car looked a bit rougher in person. There's a small dent in the hood, and the car had been wrecked and repaired, hence the bondo and unpainted front end. The upper plennum had been painted a gold/bronze color which was starting to look a sickly green. The custom trunk had its large sub removed so there was a hole in the custom box. The body kit looked like a lot of kits do after being installed and driven hard for a while... kinda ragged. The interior was in pretty good shape. No missing bezels, rips in the fabric or anything like that. Some other minor dents and dings here and there, but all in all the car is in decent condition and seems to be in proper mechanical order. Biggest muffler tips I've ever seen on a car however, they had to be at least 4". Strangly they weren't obnoxiously loud like the stereotypical 'fart can' tips. The Greddy exhaust has a nice deep grumble.

Unfortunately it didn't have a tag so the test drive was limited to the guy's subdivision and I wasn't willing to push it too hard when there are kids in the yard of some of the houses playing. The guy however, didn't seem to have any qualms about taking it through the gears several times around the tight corners and I felt nothing concerning during the ride. I also asked for the car to be left idling for a while since I know there can be some warning signs after a drive. I saw nothing concerning, no engine smells or smoke and only a bit of smoke from the muffler which quickly went away.

The seller wanted to keep his back wheels, which are apparently some super rare Blitz set, which is fine by me. I prefer the 350Z wheels to the Blitz ones anyway and he said that he would be fine with getting two more 350 wheels to replace the ones he wants to keep. He also said that he would go to $4500, but that would be as low as he would go. I still feel like with a cash in hand offer he would go a bit lower.

So... this is definitely the best prospect I've seen so far. The upgrades that he has already done on the car would save me at least $1500, the problems with the body kit are negligible because I would eventually replace all 4 aspects of it anyway. And the car seems to be in proper working order.

This week I'm going to check on a couple loan options in an attempt to expedite the purchase if this is "the one", keep a buffer in my bank account in case something happens, and help build my credit score at the same time.

The next Z I plan to check into is probably this one: Cars for Sale: 1990 Nissan 300ZX Twin Turbo in Mcdonough, GA 30252: Hatchback Details - 317944447 - AutoTrader.com

Rupe

I think I like the second potential car more cause it's black/more stock looking. But the red one seems like a fair deal from what you're saying.

2DLogic

I know it's been a while since I posted last, some not car hunt stuff to deal with, ect.

Anyway... after browsing Craigslist and Autotrader every day since I started looking, going to test drive 6 different cars, and almost making a terrible mistake on purchasing a local TT Z32 that was posted in the Craigslist Find of the Week thread on Nicoclub.com, I ended up buying a 91 N/A 2+0 with 165180 miles that is in amazing condition for her age.

I purchased the car from a young Korean guy, about my age, who was in the states for college. He had finished his degree and was moving back to Korea, so he had no more need for the car. He was asking $3800, I talked him down to $3500 and purchased the car after the first test drive.
Mechanically, my father and I noticed nothing amiss. The car runs great; the only issue so far is that the A/C doesn't get as cold as it should, cool but not cold. Aesthetically, also great. Normal fading, road dings, and wear on the paint. There is a small crack in the front bumper, probably from pulling up onto a curb too far and the tail lights housing has small cracks. The interior is just as well maintained, there is a small wear spot on the microsuede on the passenger's side and two small wear spots on the trunk cover and shift/ebrake boots. The shift *** is also showing signs of wear, but nothing that immediately effects the look, and the latch on the glove box latch is weak so it doesn't stay closed very well. There is an aftermarket Dual head unit and an amp behind the driver's- seat, all the electrical systems work.

The guy didn't speak English very well, and his translator had trouble conveying some of the more technical questions I had, but from what I gather the car is stock except for an intake and exhaust. You can actually see the original air box in the trunk picture, along with a 90-92' service manual (score!) and bag for the Ttops.

Without further rambling, here's what everyone comes for... Pictures!










The Celica belongs to my girlfriend, and you can see my 3000GT in several of the pictures, as well as my parent's Camaro and father's truck.

2DLogic

My ultimate plan for the car is to have something that I can take to the track on the weekends, drag or road coarse, but that is still comfortable enough to be a daily drive if it needed to be.

Power is really just a number as I know the car will be quick enough to enjoy under any circumstance, but by the end of the project I hope to make around 450-500whp. Any more than that and I think I'd start seriously sacrificing everyday driveability. To accomplish that, I'm looking at a TT conversion with GT535 turbos, dual intake, minimum 615cc injectors, test pipes, large front mount intercooler, ect. I'd prefer not to have to run race fuel/additives regularly, but would like to have a separate tuning map that would allow me to turn up the boost and squeeze a bit more power for track days.

Aesthetically I've always been pretty minimalist, I'm looking for a clean restoration. Updating the body panels, lights, paint, wheels, ect. Possibly converting the interior over to black/black leather and carpeting at some point.

The body kit will be a mix of pieces. The front bumper will be the Extreme Dynamics Type G in Duraflex urethane, the nose panel will be the Type 1 panel from TwinZ, the rear bumper will be the Type II (bumper/diffuser combo) also from TwinZ. The side skirts I am still debating over; TwinZ, Kaminari, and a couple others are being mulled over. The rear spoiler will be replaced with the 94-96 TT spoiler. Recommendations and comments on other things that would also pair well together are appreciated.
For reference, here are samples of the body panels I listed:
Front bumper

Nose panel

Rear bumper/diffuser combo

94-96 spoiler


Tail lights will most likely be the usual JDM clear, though SpecD's replicas are tempting at $160 I'd have to see more of them first. The headlights will be converted to HIDs at some point as well.

I'm also thinking coilovers, so that I can adjust ride stiffness for road/track use, and to lower the car an inch or so. Quite possibly going to be picking up a set of 350Z wheels to get a slight upgrade from stock, but stay true to the car's lineage soon as well.

I have $500 that I could theoretically drop into the car right now, as I had allocated $4000 if I ended up going with an N/A, I'm debating where to put it, or if I should just hang on to it for now in case there is some unforeseen issue.

Rupe

Hey man looks good, reminds me of when I got mine

As for the build, you may have to do more than you're thinking in order to achieve 450whp. I'm pretty sure the engine itself is rated at 500, so you'd need to push past that a decent amount with engine work in order to achieve your desired whp.

And last but not least, I would definitely hang onto that money for now, if all's running well right now it's better to just save cause something's going to go wrong and it costs!

Anyway, congrats on the purchase