Lost Vegaz

Tunning, what options do we have. a 90 NA M/T. I know about the ECU's but what else do we have after that. I don't like the idea of sending my ecu away to a company like Stillen, and just getting back " optimised fuel maps " that sorta bugs me. I like to know what my engine is doing at all times. And after I change parts I believe in re tuning for what I just changed. But I don't really see anything for tuning on either stillen's site or jim wolf's. So is there any other stuff for tuning? I can take my wide band, and egt's out of my 3000 and use them in the 90 Z, but what about fuel controllers, or timing controllers, or something like a knock box?? Just curious, because when I actually get my 300 back up and running. Stock 90 Z, bad water pump and a blown head gasket. Bought really cheap, great condition, now in pieces, waiting for parts. But once it is back together then the fun begins. So back on topic, what is available?? Thank you

emo236

well, you can countinue to send your ecu back into jwt and have them burn you a new eprom for your mods....it costs about $100 each time I believe. You can get a standalone if you want to spend the money. If not, you can get an upgraded ECU from JWT and then an SAFC. I would do most of your bolt on mods first, and then start worrying about tuning.

ZLover4Life

JWT/Ash ECU + Apex-i S-AFCII

simple, cheap, and very effective

Riz Z Speed

2nd.
SAFC will be even more effective with a dyno tune.

Lost Vegaz

yeah, but you can also tune it on the street, closest 1 to 1 gear ratio, engine under most load, which is usually 3rd, but since I have not looked it up yet, I can't say what the closest gear ratio on the Z is. Probably 3rd right

CanyonCarver

4th gear is 1:1. There will be no better way to tune the SAFC than on a dyno with a wideband setup. Otherwise, if your butt dyno isn't precisely calibrated, you could cause yourself to lose horsepower.

Lost Vegaz

Thank you, but I all ready have a wide band, and egt's, and alot of other stuff. Dyno tuning is all most all ways done in the closest 1 to 1 gear, where the most load is on the engine. Dyno's are very useful if you want horsepower and torque #'s. I don't want those #'s yet. I want A/f's and Egt's and a way to control my Idc's, and a way to advance or retard ignition timing. So all you need is a driver to floor it in the gear, while you watch the screens and gauges and make your adjustments. Which, is all a dyno is, a way to leg out your closest 1 to 1 gear, and not get a ticket. But I am very disappointed because there is not alot out there for tuning, for these cars. So I all ready started talking to other companies out there, that make the products I want, and see if they are compatible with the Z.

And my butt dyno is allways off, It says 200 hp, when it is actually somewhere in the 400's.

CanyonCarver

LOL.... you're funny. Cuz if I wanted to "tune", I'd want to tune for max horsepower and not for some arbitrary AFR numbers. EGT's won't be an issue with a properly tuned engine. The only way that I know to get max h.p. numbers are on a dyno.

Lost Vegaz

okay, I don't wanna come off as a a$$hole. But, have you ever been to a dyno, or tuned your own car?? I really don't want to sound like a know it all or a a$$. But the way you tune a car is to get the A/f ratio perfect, through out the entire rpm band that usually means no knocking and no melting pistons. The horsepower number means nothing. That # is only for bragging. Too lean and you start detonating like a ****, which usually means that your egt climb really high and really fast. Very bad things happen then. Too rich and your not making peak power, and too rich is not safe either. You want it to be right in the middle. That hp # is not going to change to much. If hp # is all you want, then run it really lean, and the motor will make more power,, sure, but more than likely, it will blow. When the a/f ratio is perfect, and you put it on the dyno, to get your #. That is pretty much all you are going to get, that particular setup you just tuned, is running at peak, it is maxed out. untill you upgrade something or change boost levels, or add another power adder that setup is done and tuned. There is no more power to be found. Be happy with your # and go tell your friends. And start thinking about your next mod. So since I can do most of the tuning on a street or highway, why would I need a dyno, so thay can charge me a 100 bucks a hour. Initial tuning I do on the street, really fine tunning I'll go to the dyno

emo236

get an SAFC and get to the dyno then.

ZLover4Life

and out of curiosity, how are you going to know what air/fuel ratio is safe without a dyno?

If you run too rich, you're just wasting gas and getting sh!tty performance.

If you run just a tad too lean, you might only detonate super high up in your powerband. Your ECU will never tell you because it ignores the detonation sensor above 3000rpms, your EGTs might only raise a tiny bit if it's at the peak of your powerband, and you're not likely to hear it or feel it if it's happening at 6800+rpm. Throw it on a dyno and you're going to see the slight power spikes and troughs and you'll know you were detonating.

Dyno tuning is the ONLY way to properly fine-tune any car. Do you really think Ash Powers would waste time taking every customer of his to the dyno to properly tune the car if it could be done just based off EGTs and A/F ratios? (And he'll be the first to tell you he doesn't tune purely for power, but for safety first.)

And not to be ignorant, but please don't cry to use when you blow your car up... you honestly aren't striking me as the type of person who should be fiddling with his A/F ratios and timing.

And why are you wasting your time doing this on an NA anyway? No offense to NA owners (I'm an advocate of a Z is a Z no matter its form of induction) but you're not going to see any worthwhile gains over a JWT or Ash ECU, and any gains you do see WILL result in decreased safety. Ash and JWT run the tunes exactly like they do because each of them feels VERY strongly that if you tune it any differently, you're risking your car. TT's will see gains with fine-tuning beyond just an ECU upgrade... your NA really won't.

CanyonCarver

I think the SAFC is a worthwhile investment ($150 - $200) to get a little boost out of the n/a. From what I've read, there is potential for 20 - 30 rwhp when combined with the usual intake and exhaust mods. Also from what I've read, the margin for improvement is narrow and the AFR's that you want to shoot for are in the 12:1 range, but perfect changes as you go thru the rpm range.

Lost Vegaz

Zlover, you are a very harsh person. But you do speak the truth. I know very much about a/f's, and what to do to them. I started this thread to find more tuning options. I maybe sorta new to Z's but turbo's and tunning is something I do know alot about. Jim Wolf probably does know more than me, that's fine, obviously you trust his tunning. And from what I read about your car, it sounds like a beast. But I don't like the whole send me your ECU, I need to see the maps and set them to what I want. And from past experiences, I know I can do it just as good as them. And if I lose a engine in the process, so be it. You live and learn, right. That is why I am talking to certain people to get me certain products. And I am not talking about N.A. I need Boost. So I will follow your advice, and get one of those ecu's and do the final tunning myself.

O/T, how do you like your GT2530's, what point do they spool at, if you had to do it over, would you buy them again? What is your injector size? Thank you

emo236

If you want to make your own maps,etc. You should get a standalone and use your WBs with them.

ZLover4Life

I'm glad you aren't offended. It's too often that people become overly defensive to my responses (like the idiot talking about "hydropower" a few threads down).

I run Nismo 555 cc/min injectors, but will likely be running the Border 850 kit this winter after my rebuild (the 555's can't handle everything the GT2530's put out, and the Border kit is the most inexpensive kit to convert to the 94+ injector style).

The GT2530's make 17psi on my setup (stock manifolds and Specialty Z's old style split flange downpipes) around 3700 rpms or so (IIRC). They're rated at 27psi max and are said to be capable of that around 4500 rpms. The most I ever got was 26psi by accident, and I was going WAY too fast to look down to find out what rpm I hit that at. I remember loving it though. I also remember the smoke screen I left behind when it blew my engine.

I used to think they weren't laggy at all, but I was just fooling myself and didn't remember what a stock turbo Z felt like. After driving a car with stock turbos (gutted precats and stock manifolds) again, I realized how much more responsive the stock turbos are, but there's no doubt in my mind that the power output more than makes up for the slightly increased lag. (I think I hit 17psi on the stock turbo Z closer to 3000 rpms, but while stock turbos limit you to a hair over 400rwhp at full spool, my GT2530's did 431rwhp and had plenty of breath left). To describle the power kick once they spool, imagine cruising at 2000 rpms in first gear... punch it. Power feels slightly less than stock for a second and then the car hits around 4000 rpms and the back end swings out with the huge surge of power. GT2530 response is much more violent in this respect because once they start spooling, they spool HARD. Did I mention that I've taken out brand new C6 Vettes with these turbos? If you launch or start out above 3500 rpms, response between the stock turbos and GT2530's is close.

Would I do it again? That's a very hard question to answer. I've had GT2530's for nearly 2 years now... and I've had two of them fail on me in that time. Causes entirely unknown, but I have heard of other people who had the same problem. Maybe HKS just got a bad batch of CHRA's... maybe the shop I used back then to install them used stock oil lines instead of the restricted ones that are meant to lower oil pressure... maybe there were deeper problems that I couldn't figure out. Either way, I spent $3,650 for a kit back in January of 04 and have since replaced both of the turbos already (one under warranty).

So I guess I'd answer that question like this:

If I bought a stock 300ZX and had the money to fully build a motor to my specifications from the ground up, I'd definately get GT2530's again because, with a fresh motor, they'd be less likely to fail (shavings in the oil or cooling system, clogged oil passages, clogged coolant passages, etc). That is why I still have them... I'm going to be building the engine from the ground up again, and I'm going to make DAMN sure that if they do fail, it wasn't my cars fault but HKS's fault.

If I bought a stock 300ZX and the turbos were blown, and I had just enough to get GT2530's and the supporting mods, I'd look at a different turbo after my experiences with them because I don't want to risk them failing on me since I feel that they are very fragile turbos. I'd probably just get the Garrett GT28RS, which is a GT2530 with a smaller compressor housing (peaks in the low 20psi range and won't make as much power, but you can get 2 of them for about $1500).

FWIW, Greg Dupree was running 10.6 @ 134 (I believe) with GT2530's on a stock long block. Dr. Dean Delvy (DrDCanaceu on tt.net) runs consistant 10.8's with his GT2530's on a stock long block.