Can you explain brake horse power and how it's tested and where exactly did brake horse power originate? What happened to base horse power? Are the two the same? I was thinking there was a tool that went at the flywheel that measured it but maybe it was at the wheels with the wheels removed. But anyway, why do we use the term and how would one check bhp if they wanted to know?

Just wondering because I got into an argument with my brother in laws and they thought I was on crack for stating brake horse power and rwhp, the two are fine imho, as long as you know you're getting ten to twenty percent less at the wheels after the power transfer from the engine to the wheels is all and said and done.

The other item of debate was torque, which on larger motors is usually greater. I had mentioned my car, stock was about 283ft/lb torque but probably around 300 or more with moderate upgrades and they thought I was insane for thinking it could come from that small motor. Also they didn't believe you could increase torque by way of modifications (meaning whatever it shipped with was what you were stuck with) but nonetheless I was backed into a corner and held my ground. I know from somewhere that with more horsepower comes more torque, correct me if I'm wrong.

Brake horsepower (bhp) is the measure of an engine's horsepower without the loss in power caused by the gearbox, alternator, differential, water pump, and other auxiliary components such as power steering pump, muffled exhaust system, etc. Brake refers to a device which was used to load an engine and hold it at a desired RPM. During testing, the output torque and rotational speed were measured to determine the brake horsepower. Horsepower was originally measured and calculated by use of the indicator (a James Watt invention of the late 18th century), and later by means of a De Prony brake connected to the engine's output shaft. More recently, an engine dynamometer is used instead of a De Prony brake. The output delivered to the driving wheels is less than that obtainable at the engine's crankshaft.

Wikipedia is your friend. =)

Your brothers in law are f*cking retarded. Not just a little bit... they're f*cking retarded. Tell them that the first philosophical imperative is to not talk about things of which they have no knowledge... learn it and live by it. (My biggest pet peeve of all time is when people speak as authorities when they really know nothing, whether they realize it or not.)

horsepower = torque*rpm/5252

If horsepower increases, it is EXACTLY because torque increased. It also explains why horsepower and torque curves always cross at 5252 - at this RPM, the formula is horsepower = torque (any variance in this is caused by errors in RPM readings). The machines can only measure how much twist the wheels are exerting on it... this is measured torque. The amount of torque the engine is producing is them calculated by (measured torque)/(gear ratio). So the machines only measure torque... they calculate the rest based on this measurement. (Which is why I say it's retarded to think that horsepower can increase without torque changing.)

https://i214.photobucket.com/albums/...dyno_s54m3.jpg

And bhp would require (as stated in the thread before me) pulling the engine and doing a lot of work to measure it. In general, just measure rwhp and divide by 0.85 for ~bhp (rwd cars lose about 15% of their power to the drivetrain, awd cars lose closer to 20%).

This comes from solving the following equation for bhp:
rwhp = (1-0.15)*bhp
rwhp = 0.85*bhp
rwhp/0.85 = bhp

Yeah, my brother in laws think they know it all, and that's the problem. I admit I don't know everything, but I do a lot of reading, and comparing and I know when to say 'hold on here'.

Another argument, and I don't even remember how we got there (too drunk), maybe because I was talking about my 300 but we got on the debate about electric cars and such. Now I understand they're more effiecient and there's less parasitic loss to the wheels vs. conventional combustion setup but I don't see how (at least in my life time or in my future range of buying one) an electric sport car variant that can compare on the track and road and also be cost comparable too.

The problem that we both agreed on is that there's just not enough market for it and it's too soon. But right now comparing say the New Corvette for under 50k with a 4.2 0-60 to the Tesla at 109,000 with a 0-60 of 3.9, I can't quite see the benefit of spending twice as much for something and the only way you would make the extra investment up is in the fuel savings, which most will agree is probably pointless in the sport car market anyway.

But comparing it to, let's say a Toyota Yaris, about 15,000 to buy and about 35 mpg compared to an all-electric Nissan Leaf at 30,000, you've got 15,000 in the extra cost of purchase to make up in the span that you own the vehicle. Now of course there's other variables that need to be considered, like average time one keeps a vehicle before buying a new one which might only be about 5 to 7 years.

At an average of 12,000 miles per year comes to about $960.00/year in fuel. Now of course you don't recoup all that at the pump with each charge on the electric car, you're still paying at the pump, you'll see it at a remote charging station or in your utility bill, so there's that to consider too. But at $960.00 in fuel you've only made up half of your invested 15,000 in the electric, and that's without subtracting actual charging costs plus a new battery after 7 years or however long they last.

Until they can sell an electric car that actually pays for itself in 5 to seven years I don't see a lot of people jumping on that band wagon, and again it's likely a little of too soon, and not enough market.

But trying to replace my 300zx that was far less than $10,000 with an electric equivalent would be impossible and as far as I can see, not possible in the next ten to fifteen years.

Click, and, Bang.

IMO, electric cars and hybrid cars both are just fooling people. we will still burn the gas to the point that it's no longer economical. that point is reached after a fixed amount of gas is burned, and we will burn it. it doesn't matter if we slow it down with these electric and hybrid cars. if you think you can save money with them, good for you. if i were that worried about fuel mileage, i'd have one of those sweet ass cars from the 80's and early 90's like the CRX that get 50 MPG. other than that, the money you save with that prius isn't worth the looks.

if the country all went nuclear, as long as done right is actually a clean source of power, and then developed the electric car to taylor to all needs, as in be able to charge relatively quickly, like a few hours, and would last closer to 400 miles a charge, so you could use them for trips not just commutes, and also have a realistic sports car version, not one that not only did a sub 4 second 0-60, but also could last 100 miles or close to it, and not weigh over 4k lbs and something more around 3k or lighter, then yeah, it is realistic to save the fossil fuels burned and completely change, but until then. we will always burn gasoline. i just hope people go eco crazy and all buy hybrids so gas is in less of demand, so we not only burn less so we have more years of petroleum, but prices also go down for us enthusiasts. lol.

Nuclear? Seriously? Ever heard about Chernobyl? Like Fallout 3 cars. BOOM!

Or this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

no dude. you're missing it. we WILL burn gas to the point that it is no longer economically viable. oil companies, until then, will make enough money to prevent any new ideas from going any further. we won't see an alternative fuel source until people absolutely cannot afford gas anymore. until our cars have zero value.

Well we could mod our cars to run on hydrogen lol or methane XD

methane's a natural gas too, so i'm not sure about that one.

hydrogen would oxidize my aluminum plenum though. and aluminum heads... everything has to be stainless for hydrogen. plus direct injection is really the only way to go with it if you want any gain, so completely new heads would be needed for the Z32. i've done some serious reading on this stuff lol. it's really interesting, but over all disappointing compared to the hopes that i once had for it.

ACtually I was thinking the methane from cows. Its possible btw lol

And I did not know that about hydrogen! Interesting to say the lest, but someone somewhere will do something to keep their Z on the road, I know I would!

wow, i cannot believe you just used Chernobyl as a point, it was ran by soviet russia in no one gives a shit don't ask don't tell style. like i said, if done PROPERLY it is clean. 3 mile island is an instance of a melt down of a properly done nuclear reactor, though it was something that shouldnt happen, it was contained and there was no radiation leakage, if there was, that whol area would be boned. it's basically the way Chernobyl should have happened, if done right, however if done VERY right, it would have never happened in the first place.

What about the radioactive waste, spent fuel rods and general radioactive contamination brought about by it? anything nuclear is not clean yet, nor really is anything else for that matter (including electric cars).

Wow this thread went to shit. Reminds me of the old "hydropower" thread that got nuked.

hehehe yea it was supposed to be about reaching 400bhp :P lmao
Want to hear something funny !! i went today to the best performance shop in lebanon (Spoiler center) and i was talking to them about converting my intake to a dual one ! so he said it is doable ! i told him that i need a new sensor in order to do that so he pointed his finger at right next to the intake pipes that are plugged in the engine and told me this is the sensor !!! lol i wanted to laugh at his face !!! then he looked and find another "sensor" on the other side and told me i have 2 sensors (MAF) and he concluded that i have a dual intake while i saw it under the nose panel it were one :P He is so dumb !! And in addition to that he thinks any air filter fits in any car ! So i changed the subject since i dont want to destroy my car due to a stupid person although the best performance shop !! so i asked him about IC aluminum pipes he said they cost 40$ (4 pipes) so i think its very cheap and my 8 year old sister can put them so i think its safe for him to install them :P

sounds like you need to learn to do this stuff yourself because "the best shop" is also the most retarded shop. why did you get the pipes?

Yea unfortunately its the most popular shop for performance enthusiates.. The first time i called them to ask them about BOVs (that was some time ago) they didnt know what's a BOV so i told them dumb valve (i really dont know why they keep on calling BOVs , dumb valves in lebanon ) maybe because they're dumb !! For the IC aluminum pipes I did not get them yet.. well because some of those rubber hoses are beginning to show cracks and becoming "old" so i thought about aluminum since i"d put them and forget about them, if u know what i mean.. There are silicone hoses also... any idea which is better?

btw the only top brands available in the lebanese market are K&N and Green filter!! other air filters are sh*t and they cost 10$ !! This shop is installing them in any car so i am really confused!! i know that each car his its own specific air filter.. however they act like "one size fits all" filter.. (when i told him i wanted an airfilter , i pointed out the car for him .. he immediately said okay !! and im 100% sure that he doesnt know even the brand of my car and he never saw one !! How can he be so sure that he can install the air filter!! I even got some of my friends that go and buy a sports filter without looking at there own one installed in there car at least to know the size and the day after, a honda civic with a filter as big as his head !!!

you can't order out of country from jim wolf tech? cause that is the best.

otherwise, idk what else brand to suggest, if those truly are your only choices, go K&N but it needs a special adapter plate for the MAF otherwise the cone filter wont fit under the front nose panel properly. so it isn't just buy a filter and stick it on, you do need that piece as well.

He's hell bent on saving money, even if it means shit performance. I already told him to get JWT.

Gotta pay to play, but whatever.

consider the jim wolf air filter costs 200$ if i order it to lebanon .. the cost of shipment+ customs + pick up.. will literary cost me more than the price of the filter itself!! i will end up paying abt 500$ for a air filter.. whereas i could go K&N for 90$ eventhough it's less performance effiecient than JWT.. 500$ is not a joke.. seriously, 90$ is nothing compared to 500$!! however i will consider to order a JWT ECU because i have no other choice even if it would cost me 1k..
Zloverforlife, no offense but i dont find my money on the floor i fu know what i mean.

Most of us are familiar with the benefits of saving up for quality parts.

If you don't deem it worth it, then that's all there is to it. But I'd save for it... it's more important to me that I get every ounce of horsepower out of the products I put on my car.

And you didn't address Eric's point about mounting it. The Z32's air filter bolts to the MAF. Z32 intakes require a venturi that bolts in the same fashion and allows the clamping of a cone filter. Just keep that in mind when you go to a store to buy a filter.

I'd contribute to this thread but haven't a clue where it's gone

The problem isn't mostly because of shipment its because that's an airfilter isn't a life time product.. i don't plan on every 1-2 yrs to ship another one.. that is considering a single intake which i dont deem it worth it ! if it were a dual intake.. then heheheh... i"d consider to buy another car with the cost of the 2 filters and leave my 300zx with its stock airfilter..

Who's Eric ?! and what's Eric'spoin.. im sorry but i didnt understand "Z32 intakes require a venturi that bolts in the same fashion and allows the clamping of a cone filter" ...

I dont know what's the problem with K&N and i want to know because you are not giving me the disadvantages of it.. K&Nis considered the best airfilter in lebanon ;however, i do trust you about the Z32 issues that's why i began this thread to ask all z drivers there opinion and hopefully to "help".

an air filter is... somewhat of a lifetime product. the JWT, as well as the K&N filter are cleanable, and probably will last the life time of the vehicle. the way you're moding your car, i'm sure it'll last far longer than your engine will.

what you're confused about is how to mount the filter. eric is snwbrdrphat540 or whatever, and he's pointing out that you can't just get the filter and clamp it on somewhere. you need an adapter to mount the filter nicely to the MAF. i'm sure "the best shop in lebanon" can ghetto rig something for you, but if you want to have anything less than a shitty ass job on your car, you'll just buy the JWT filter that comes with this part.

K&N isn't necessarily bad, but JWT is better, and JWT comes with the adapter, or venturi, that you need to mount it nicely.