non turbo intercooler question
03-14-2002, 01:10 AM
#1
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non turbo intercooler question
on a 79 280zx, ive noticed at night my car runs pretty damned good and strong. its because the cold air at nigth right? during the day my car seems to struggle because it is hot, right?
ok now here is what i was thinking. would a SMALL intercooler without a turbo be too restrictive for an N/A motor. I have a p90a head, 79 intake manifold, and 81 turbo airbox with K&N filter. would the engine suck hard enough to bring that air through the intercooler to the motor:
1) at idle?
2)at mid throttle?
3)at full throttle?
i swear if this is possible i am going to do it.
let me know guys
SoCalZ Prez
http://www.socalz.org
ok now here is what i was thinking. would a SMALL intercooler without a turbo be too restrictive for an N/A motor. I have a p90a head, 79 intake manifold, and 81 turbo airbox with K&N filter. would the engine suck hard enough to bring that air through the intercooler to the motor:
1) at idle?
2)at mid throttle?
3)at full throttle?
i swear if this is possible i am going to do it.
let me know guys
SoCalZ Prez
http://www.socalz.org
03-14-2002, 03:18 AM
#2
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
The reason you car runs better at night is because the air is thicker and that results in a slightly leaner mixture too.
It could probably done .... but why ???? The air isn't going to cool down any more than the temp of the air flowing through the intercooler is it ? Why not make it simple avoid all the rubish of plumbing and cores and just get a big 4" hose and stick it on the front of the inlet with a filter in it somewhere ? .... no restrictions and it will be the same temp air at the end of the exercise.
If you want to cool your air down what you can do is just before the inlet stick a webber jet in the hose, run it to a bottle filled with 50% distilled water and 50% methanol. This will give you a setup simular to the glycol injection of the WW2 fighter aircraft, such as the ME109 and P-51 Mustang.
You have to muck around with jet size and hose size to get the right amount to flow but this is sure to bring you a couple of extra Hp's and give you a more linear intake temp.
If you would like some more info on this setup send me an email at jake@z.itgo.com
Good Luck
Jake
It could probably done .... but why ???? The air isn't going to cool down any more than the temp of the air flowing through the intercooler is it ? Why not make it simple avoid all the rubish of plumbing and cores and just get a big 4" hose and stick it on the front of the inlet with a filter in it somewhere ? .... no restrictions and it will be the same temp air at the end of the exercise.
If you want to cool your air down what you can do is just before the inlet stick a webber jet in the hose, run it to a bottle filled with 50% distilled water and 50% methanol. This will give you a setup simular to the glycol injection of the WW2 fighter aircraft, such as the ME109 and P-51 Mustang.
You have to muck around with jet size and hose size to get the right amount to flow but this is sure to bring you a couple of extra Hp's and give you a more linear intake temp.
If you would like some more info on this setup send me an email at jake@z.itgo.com
Good Luck
Jake
03-14-2002, 08:19 PM
#3
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 162
Re: non turbo intercooler question
Some people are kinda confused on why an intercooler works. On a turbo motor, the action of compressing the air builds up a lot of heat making the air going into the engine really hot. The intercooler takes this hot air and provides a large surface of aluminum for the outside air of a lower temp to cool the hot air inside. Using an intercooler on a n/a engine wouldn't change the intake air temp because there would be no difference in temp from inside the intercooler to the outside. Not temp difference, no heat transfer. Make sense?
-jeremy-
-jeremy-
03-14-2002, 08:29 PM
#4
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
i still think that if you are travelling on a hot day and you are sucking up nothig but hot air that an intercooler would lower your intake some degrees. you have all the breeze being forced onto the intercooler cooling down what it is sucking in. even on an n/a wouldnt this still work slightly? think of it as wind chill. it could be 70* outside, but with an intercooler working properly, it could be way lower than that. maybe lower than 50*. who is to say this wouldnt work. i am going to try it. there is a dyno day coming up and i wil get a base on what i am running now. i will then install the intercooler and get a figure on that. it has to work somehow guys!
david karey
SoCalZ Prez
http://www.socalz.org
david karey
SoCalZ Prez
http://www.socalz.org
03-15-2002, 03:35 AM
#5
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
I like the idea sounds logical, but they are right. I kinda want to try out the distilled /methanol idea.But you are right it would cool the air a little. I don't know about 20*, it's worth a try. Also if you got a shiny intercooler blingin in the front of your ride these ricers will think twice before pretending to have a fast car. Props on the idea though. Let us know if you get results out of it. Who know's if it works you could patent the kit and sell it to a parts company for some bucks. Good luck
What turns? There all straight to my Z
What turns? There all straight to my Z
03-15-2002, 03:07 PM
#6
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Location: Idaho
Posts: 162
Re: non turbo intercooler question
At best, you can expect to get the same amount of horsepower that you started with. First off, you need to go read up about how windchill works. You are trying to get something for nothing here. If there is no heat difference between the inside of the intercooler and the outside, there is going to be no heat transfer. The only way for the air moving over the outside to have a "wind chill" effect would be if there were a temp difference. Think of it this way. Is a pole sticking up out of the ground with wind blowing over it cooler that the air blowing over it? You can experiment with this. Take temperatures of things outside on a windy day. Let me guess, they will all be the same?? I think you time and money would be better wasted on a perpetual motion machine, because people are just going to laugh when they see an intercooler on a n/a car!
-jeremy-
if you really wanna do it though, is a Isuzu NPR, cause they look the coolest!! HAHAHA
-jeremy-
if you really wanna do it though, is a Isuzu NPR, cause they look the coolest!! HAHAHA
03-15-2002, 10:33 PM
#8
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Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,220
Re: non turbo intercooler question
The intercooler idea is unique and may lower the intake temp, but the pressure drop resulting from the piping and intercooler might make you stay at the same hp. I don't know if that's totally true, but it's just my .02.
03-15-2002, 11:10 PM
#9
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Re: go ahead and try it
Hey go ahead and try it, but it won't work. Don't want to sound like a jerk here, but what, do you think you know more than all the automotive engineers? Why doesn't any n/a car come with an intercooler stock? Its the old saying, you can't get something from nothing, and this is exactly what you are dealing with here. You would be trying to cool ambient air with ambient air at the same temperature, how would that work? The only way it could possible even begin to work is if you sprayed water on your intercooler constantly, thus creating a sort of intake swamp cooler, because the evaporating water would take some of the heat out of the air. Man seriously, I think they should teach more science in schools today, because this is like a basic scientific principle. Anyhow there I go sounding like an a$$-hole again, but hey its the truth!
03-15-2002, 11:18 PM
#10
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Location: Idaho
Posts: 162
Re: non turbo intercooler question
Come on guys, this is really amazing me?? Are you actually buying into this intercooler crap on a N/A engine?? Before you go on talking about this, I think you guys need to read up on the laws of thermodynamics.
Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics
Two systems individually in thermal equalibrium with a third system are in thermal equilbrium with each other.
The First Law of Thermodynamics
The internal energy of a system changes from an initial value U(I) to a final value U(F) due to heat Q and work W:
change in U=U(F)-U(I)=Q-W
Second Law of Thermodynamics
Heat flows spontaneously from a substance at a higher temperature to a substance at a lower temperature and does not flow spontaneously in reverse direction.
Third Law of Thermodynamics (not needed for this explaination, but interesting stuff none-the-less)
It is not possible to lower the temperature of any system to absolute zero in a finite number of steps.
Now, to explain wind chill factor, lets look at how the wind chill factor scale was made. Way back in the day, people realized that it felt colder outside when the wind was blowing. To figure out a scale of relative temperature, they devised a method. When the wind was blowing, they stuck a bucket of water outside and timed how like it would take for the water to freeze solid. The wind chill factor was determined by comparing the time to freeze the water in the wind compared to the time it would take to freeze with no wind. So, if the wind is blowing and it is -8C outside and it takes five minutes for the water to freeze, the windchill temp could be said to be
-20 since it takes five minutes for the bucket to freeze at -20 with no wind. The thing is, wind cannot cool something more than the outside temperature is to begin with, like with the intercooler on the N/A engine. The air going into the intercooler is the same exact temp and the air outside, since it is the same stuff. Therefore no temperature change. You guys need to go read a science book before you buy into all this crap. Go with the alcohol injection if you want to cool your intake air temp. That will work.
-jeremy-
Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics
Two systems individually in thermal equalibrium with a third system are in thermal equilbrium with each other.
The First Law of Thermodynamics
The internal energy of a system changes from an initial value U(I) to a final value U(F) due to heat Q and work W:
change in U=U(F)-U(I)=Q-W
Second Law of Thermodynamics
Heat flows spontaneously from a substance at a higher temperature to a substance at a lower temperature and does not flow spontaneously in reverse direction.
Third Law of Thermodynamics (not needed for this explaination, but interesting stuff none-the-less)
It is not possible to lower the temperature of any system to absolute zero in a finite number of steps.
Now, to explain wind chill factor, lets look at how the wind chill factor scale was made. Way back in the day, people realized that it felt colder outside when the wind was blowing. To figure out a scale of relative temperature, they devised a method. When the wind was blowing, they stuck a bucket of water outside and timed how like it would take for the water to freeze solid. The wind chill factor was determined by comparing the time to freeze the water in the wind compared to the time it would take to freeze with no wind. So, if the wind is blowing and it is -8C outside and it takes five minutes for the water to freeze, the windchill temp could be said to be
-20 since it takes five minutes for the bucket to freeze at -20 with no wind. The thing is, wind cannot cool something more than the outside temperature is to begin with, like with the intercooler on the N/A engine. The air going into the intercooler is the same exact temp and the air outside, since it is the same stuff. Therefore no temperature change. You guys need to go read a science book before you buy into all this crap. Go with the alcohol injection if you want to cool your intake air temp. That will work.
-jeremy-
03-16-2002, 11:58 AM
#11
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
Some of you may not like the answer, but ZGUY36 is right. Another way to look at the First Law of Thermodynamics is "There is no such thing as a free lunch". As for the Second Law - well, "Heat Flows Downhill" is the way we learned to think of it in our Chemical Engineering classes.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are constant - they can't be "modified" under the hood of a car. And there isn't any downhill for the heat flow under there either. The best suggestion is LOKI's - run a large diameter hose from in front of the radiator to the air cleaner intake. (That's essentially what the road and track folks are doing with the "cold boxes" they mount on their carburators.)
The normal air source for the carbs is from the engine compartment - air that has picked up heat from passing through the radiator and from the heat radiated by the engine block. Relative to this heated engine compartment air, the ambient-temperature air in front of the car is cooler. By "piping" air from in front of the radiator to the carb intakes, you are introducing the relatively cooler air (it hasn't picked up heat from the radiator or engine block yet) to the carb intakes. Will you be able to tell adifference? Beats me - I haven't bothered to try it with my 240Z.
The Laws of Thermodynamics are constant - they can't be "modified" under the hood of a car. And there isn't any downhill for the heat flow under there either. The best suggestion is LOKI's - run a large diameter hose from in front of the radiator to the air cleaner intake. (That's essentially what the road and track folks are doing with the "cold boxes" they mount on their carburators.)
The normal air source for the carbs is from the engine compartment - air that has picked up heat from passing through the radiator and from the heat radiated by the engine block. Relative to this heated engine compartment air, the ambient-temperature air in front of the car is cooler. By "piping" air from in front of the radiator to the carb intakes, you are introducing the relatively cooler air (it hasn't picked up heat from the radiator or engine block yet) to the carb intakes. Will you be able to tell adifference? Beats me - I haven't bothered to try it with my 240Z.
03-16-2002, 09:11 PM
#12
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
just wondering about the alc or meth injection do you inject stright into to the air going into the throttle bodie(i have a 76 w/ FI) and dose the bottle have to be pressure-ized or run off a pump like a winsheild washer. dose it need to run all the time and where can i find the meth.
besides all those questions i had this brain storm the other day in school (i'm 16 so have to do all that good stuff) but i'n summer and spring i drive w/ my windows down and i never use my A/C, that said could i take some type of line and wrap around my intake witch is a 3" cust pipe w/ a APC cone filter but could i wrap it around the pipe to cool the air i know that the lines as they are get frosty or i could make a box seal it up an put a matrix inside and run the A/C lines to it.
Tell me what you think please and any help on my questions
Thanks and please give credit where credit is due if you use my idea e-mail me and tell me how it works!
when the racer in the rice next to you sees you grin he'll find out why when he meets you at the finish.
76' 280Z
besides all those questions i had this brain storm the other day in school (i'm 16 so have to do all that good stuff) but i'n summer and spring i drive w/ my windows down and i never use my A/C, that said could i take some type of line and wrap around my intake witch is a 3" cust pipe w/ a APC cone filter but could i wrap it around the pipe to cool the air i know that the lines as they are get frosty or i could make a box seal it up an put a matrix inside and run the A/C lines to it.
Tell me what you think please and any help on my questions
Thanks and please give credit where credit is due if you use my idea e-mail me and tell me how it works!
when the racer in the rice next to you sees you grin he'll find out why when he meets you at the finish.
76' 280Z
03-16-2002, 09:51 PM
#13
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
hi
I agree with the other guys. "you can't get something from nothing." You don't have the same initial ambiant air temp to work with so no matter what, your air temp can never be higher then what you start with, unless you somehow introduce a cooling affect. We all know that when you compress a gas, heat is generated ( the turbo problem) the opposite happens when you expand a gas it gets colder. thats how the A/C in your car works. Anywho, I think the meth idea is prettty good the air passing over the needle would suck the mixture along with it (venturi's principal). in order for this idea to work, the area where the needle is would have to have a wider diameter then the piping ahead of it, creating a vacuum around the needle, once the mixture is set the meth/air differential will remain constant, because the volume of suction is dependent on the air velocity.
man that's long. I just went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
he he he.
Anyway hope i helped. and on and on and on and on.
Toronto Ontario
I agree with the other guys. "you can't get something from nothing." You don't have the same initial ambiant air temp to work with so no matter what, your air temp can never be higher then what you start with, unless you somehow introduce a cooling affect. We all know that when you compress a gas, heat is generated ( the turbo problem) the opposite happens when you expand a gas it gets colder. thats how the A/C in your car works. Anywho, I think the meth idea is prettty good the air passing over the needle would suck the mixture along with it (venturi's principal). in order for this idea to work, the area where the needle is would have to have a wider diameter then the piping ahead of it, creating a vacuum around the needle, once the mixture is set the meth/air differential will remain constant, because the volume of suction is dependent on the air velocity.
man that's long. I just went on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
he he he.
Anyway hope i helped. and on and on and on and on.
Toronto Ontario
03-16-2002, 11:16 PM
#14
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Idaho
Posts: 162
Re: non turbo intercooler question
In responce to tombarace14, then answer is no, hooking up your air conditioning to your intake will not give you a power increase. Again, we are trying too hard here to get something for nothing!! Remeber, by turning on you air conditioner compressor pump, you are sucking fifteen to twenty horse right there to turn the thing. The gain you will get from the colder air going into the engine will be less than that. You can't get something for nothing!!!! By moving energy from one source to another, there is always a loss, and that is what you will experiece. Also, by opinion on the alcohol injection is to use a pump and a sprayer nozzle. If you use the venturi action, I don't believe that the alcohol will be atomized enough, therefore reducing your cooling effect. Use something like a windshield washer pump and a sprayer nozzle that you can get at a hardware store. Easy setup that actually works!
-jeremy-
-jeremy-
03-18-2002, 11:21 PM
#17
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Re: non turbo intercooler question
I wonder if a water/alcohol injection would do much for an NA engine.....
It doesnt even work all that well on a turbo engine from what I hear, not anywhere near as good as a proper intercooled setup anyways. Plus it would have less of an effect on the air coming in from an NA engine....the only reason why it works on a turbo engine is because the air coming in is so hot.
I think on the planes they were running quite high compression yeah? I think that the water injection prior to the chamber would have neutralised any hot spots and stop detonation....Wouldnt want a blown engine a 10,000 ft above the pacific :-(
I wonder if it actually added any power though?
Last problem with the injection is that you are basically wasting space. Unless you are injecting N20....but thats a whole other thread :-)
Ray
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari - 1967, Camar
It doesnt even work all that well on a turbo engine from what I hear, not anywhere near as good as a proper intercooled setup anyways. Plus it would have less of an effect on the air coming in from an NA engine....the only reason why it works on a turbo engine is because the air coming in is so hot.
I think on the planes they were running quite high compression yeah? I think that the water injection prior to the chamber would have neutralised any hot spots and stop detonation....Wouldnt want a blown engine a 10,000 ft above the pacific :-(
I wonder if it actually added any power though?
Last problem with the injection is that you are basically wasting space. Unless you are injecting N20....but thats a whole other thread :-)
Ray
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari - 1967, Camar
03-19-2002, 01:28 PM
#19
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03-19-2002, 03:18 PM
#20
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Re: lol
I think that you are right in that alcohol injection wouldn't help an N/A motor out that much. There isn't really that much of a performance increase with temperature drop. On a turbo motor though, the increase is supposedly a whole bunch. First off, with a slightyly cooler charge of air, the pressure is going to drop allowing the turbo to increase its output to maintain the pressure at where it is set. That equates to more cubic feet of air going into your engine. Also, by injecting alcohol, you will make the air fuel mixture harder to ignite giving you the same effects as a higher octane gasoline. By essentially raising the octane of the fuel, you can therefore increase the turbo boost output. So, just putting alcohol injection on a turbo motor wouldn't really do a whole lot, but it makes it possible to squeeze more power from the turbo. I have heard on the www.turboford.com that alcohol injection gives you almost as much power increase on a turbo motor as an intercooler.
-jeremy-
ghostkilla2179, what is so funny about this post that made it so entertaining???
-jeremy-
ghostkilla2179, what is so funny about this post that made it so entertaining???
03-21-2002, 09:04 PM
#21
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Re: lol
Hey guys ... with the water/meth injection i didnt say it would give any significatnt HP gains. If you read ghostkillers inital post it says "ive noticed at night my car runs pretty damned good and strong."... I suggest the methanol setup as it will keep your intake air at a pretty close temperature all the time so you will be able to run a leaner mixture (which is what the power increase is from), which would hopefully give the "night time" performance that is being experienced .... My '78 260Z with 240Z SU's on it suffers from the same problem ... I don't promise 30HP from it or anything, I didnt ever say that. All that is needed is more dense intake air.
03-21-2002, 09:27 PM
#22
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Re: lol
Yeah thats fair enough. The water/methanol would take heat from the air. You would need to make sure that the injection is towards the start of the intake. I dont think that the water/methanol injection was. There is still the problem that you are wasting space with the methanol/water. It may just cancel itself out as far as its effectiveness...who knows. If you've got the time it would prolly stil be a good idea, it will help if you are going to increase your compression in the future.
Ray
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari - 1967, Camar
Ray
"Aerodynamics are for people who can't build engines." -- Enzo Ferrari - 1967, Camar
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