LSD diff swap
05-10-2007, 11:52 AM
#26
Euro Z King
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands where owning a car is a CRIME!!
Posts: 387
if you want a cheap clutch that holds use XTD on ebay they run 160 and they rock im using one in my yellow car my friend is running one in his ~260 to the wheels car dragging it with no problem.
I paid $370 including shipping ( to Europe) , 8 bucks for the washers and another 10 for the bolts. so all in all you guys could do it for 350 or so
really cheap compared to the compitition
I paid $370 including shipping ( to Europe) , 8 bucks for the washers and another 10 for the bolts. so all in all you guys could do it for 350 or so
really cheap compared to the compitition
05-10-2007, 12:13 PM
#27
Über User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: lemont, Illinois
Posts: 9,532
that is very cheap. but at teh same time, reading up on hybridZ, i dont know if im down with the helical design. also i noticed they are only for the R200 (though i have one in my backyard i dont know how easy and quickly i could swap it in) the power brute makes one for the R180 i think i want a clutch design though they appear or i at least get the impression tehy grab better as noted with teh auto-x and drifting comments made. which no im not making a drift car, but i would like the option of being able to flick it side ways nice and good once in a while. any comments on that frank for how yours or your buddies treats you for gettin slideways 
05-10-2007, 12:43 PM
#28
Euro Z King
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands where owning a car is a CRIME!!
Posts: 387
My opinion is that the helical design is better . i go sideways all the time!! helical in my book grab allot better! and more controllable you feel it lock up so to speak! and it doenst differ throughout the turn..
Jeffp's car has a Qaife and i had to honor to drive it .. it acted exactly the same and sideways aswel
as the cheap OBX unit!
As to which is better driving style or how you like the rear end to feel will be a personal thing.
In circuit racing the helical unit will theoretically put more torque to the outside wheel on a turn but the CLSD will just drive both. Drifters don't like the helical units as they try and prevent the drift from occuring - so they want CLSD or lockers.
I believe these washers will determine the preload.
With a HSLD the car should be setup to be neutral to under steering and the car enters corners slower but man, you can just plant your foot once you're pointed at the apex.
The case theoretically does wear, however i havent noticed it.. or at least it should wear given the way it works.
Mind you i do not drive my cars on a daily basis!
Friction between case & helical gear is where the majority of the loading comes from... I would think in that situation, the case would become a wear item. (it is hardened cast iron mind you)
The aggressiveness of the LSD is based on how hard the gears rub on the inside of the case.(preload)
Here i will qoute a guy on hybrid who in my book is completely right!!
GabeRoc is a poster on hybrid
in an open diff when a drive wheel is pushing a car down the road the torque (force*distance) of the wheel is being countered by the friction of the road against the tire times the distance from the road to the center of the wheel. So long as there is not going to be any slipping of the tire with respect to the road the torque being applied to each wheel will be basically the same. If there is slipping due to more torque than the friction of the tire can handle (ye 'ol burn out) or the friction force is reduced by lightening the load being carried by the tire (inner wheel lift in a corner) then because the torque being applied to the wheels must stay the same (in a slipping state, close to zero) and one wheel has almost zero torque being applied to it (the spinning one) the other wheel has almost no torque to drive. Summary: you get one wheel spinning and go nowhere.
Clutched LSD basically gives a fixed advantage to the non-free spinning wheel equal to the torque the clutches can withstand without slipping. So, for example lets say I have a clutched LSD where the clutches can hold 80ft*lbs before they slip. That means that if I lift a wheel off the ground the other wheel will have up to 80ft*lbs driving it forward. Similarly, if during a burnout the grabbing power of my tires does not differ by more than 80ft*lbs (or should I say the friction forces times the distance from the road to the center of the tire does not differ by more than 80ft*lbs) both wheels will spin at the same speed. Another way of saying this is it takes 80ft*lbs to spin one wheel with respect to the other. This also means that to some extent clutched LSD works like a solid axle in turns.
Now, in geared LSD you end up with a torque advantage. Some numbers I saw earlier were bias ratio (or as I have called it torque advantage) of 3.50 this mean that 3.50 *times* as much torque can be applied to one wheel as the other. This means that if you lift a wheel off the ground (a zero torque situation) the other wheel will have 3.50*0 ft*lbs of torque, 0ft*lbs, being applied to it. However, so long as you have *some* torque being applied to the less grabbing wheel the grabbier wheel will have up to 3.50 times that much torque being applied to it. However, unlike clutched LSD, there is not a torque required to spin one wheel with respect to the other. This means that the wheels can spin freely with respect to each other and still have more torque applied to one wheel than the other.
As for where the friction comes from for the geared LSD to create it?s bias, it isn?t a question of friction, it?s a question of mechanical advantage. Unlike clutched LSD there is no main friction surface, the normal gear friction is multiplied in the gear set to obtain the advantage.
As for which is better? it depends on application. If you are going to have a wheel coming off the ground under load (which means you have suspension troubles IMHO) then clutched LSD is the ticket. If you?re not then there are advantages to the open-diff like features of the geared LSD.
NOTE A REAR WHEEL SHOULD NOT EVEN BE OFF THE GROUND ON A Z!!!
Though i forgot the 80 usd for two new bearings!! sorry but you have to buy those regardless of what LSD you will buy
Jeffp's car has a Qaife and i had to honor to drive it .. it acted exactly the same and sideways aswel
as the cheap OBX unit!As to which is better driving style or how you like the rear end to feel will be a personal thing.
In circuit racing the helical unit will theoretically put more torque to the outside wheel on a turn but the CLSD will just drive both. Drifters don't like the helical units as they try and prevent the drift from occuring - so they want CLSD or lockers.
I believe these washers will determine the preload.
With a HSLD the car should be setup to be neutral to under steering and the car enters corners slower but man, you can just plant your foot once you're pointed at the apex.
The case theoretically does wear, however i havent noticed it.. or at least it should wear given the way it works.
Mind you i do not drive my cars on a daily basis!
Friction between case & helical gear is where the majority of the loading comes from... I would think in that situation, the case would become a wear item. (it is hardened cast iron mind you)
The aggressiveness of the LSD is based on how hard the gears rub on the inside of the case.(preload)
Here i will qoute a guy on hybrid who in my book is completely right!!
GabeRoc is a poster on hybrid
in an open diff when a drive wheel is pushing a car down the road the torque (force*distance) of the wheel is being countered by the friction of the road against the tire times the distance from the road to the center of the wheel. So long as there is not going to be any slipping of the tire with respect to the road the torque being applied to each wheel will be basically the same. If there is slipping due to more torque than the friction of the tire can handle (ye 'ol burn out) or the friction force is reduced by lightening the load being carried by the tire (inner wheel lift in a corner) then because the torque being applied to the wheels must stay the same (in a slipping state, close to zero) and one wheel has almost zero torque being applied to it (the spinning one) the other wheel has almost no torque to drive. Summary: you get one wheel spinning and go nowhere.
Clutched LSD basically gives a fixed advantage to the non-free spinning wheel equal to the torque the clutches can withstand without slipping. So, for example lets say I have a clutched LSD where the clutches can hold 80ft*lbs before they slip. That means that if I lift a wheel off the ground the other wheel will have up to 80ft*lbs driving it forward. Similarly, if during a burnout the grabbing power of my tires does not differ by more than 80ft*lbs (or should I say the friction forces times the distance from the road to the center of the tire does not differ by more than 80ft*lbs) both wheels will spin at the same speed. Another way of saying this is it takes 80ft*lbs to spin one wheel with respect to the other. This also means that to some extent clutched LSD works like a solid axle in turns.
Now, in geared LSD you end up with a torque advantage. Some numbers I saw earlier were bias ratio (or as I have called it torque advantage) of 3.50 this mean that 3.50 *times* as much torque can be applied to one wheel as the other. This means that if you lift a wheel off the ground (a zero torque situation) the other wheel will have 3.50*0 ft*lbs of torque, 0ft*lbs, being applied to it. However, so long as you have *some* torque being applied to the less grabbing wheel the grabbier wheel will have up to 3.50 times that much torque being applied to it. However, unlike clutched LSD, there is not a torque required to spin one wheel with respect to the other. This means that the wheels can spin freely with respect to each other and still have more torque applied to one wheel than the other.
As for where the friction comes from for the geared LSD to create it?s bias, it isn?t a question of friction, it?s a question of mechanical advantage. Unlike clutched LSD there is no main friction surface, the normal gear friction is multiplied in the gear set to obtain the advantage.
As for which is better? it depends on application. If you are going to have a wheel coming off the ground under load (which means you have suspension troubles IMHO) then clutched LSD is the ticket. If you?re not then there are advantages to the open-diff like features of the geared LSD.
NOTE A REAR WHEEL SHOULD NOT EVEN BE OFF THE GROUND ON A Z!!!
Though i forgot the 80 usd for two new bearings!! sorry but you have to buy those regardless of what LSD you will buy
05-10-2007, 12:52 PM
#29
Über User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: lemont, Illinois
Posts: 9,532
interesting.... well that aside, makes me wonder about cost replacement and so one when the rears start wearing out (which will probably take a long time) but in CLSD you replace teh clutches that are packed, but teh HLDS youd replace what? the case? that seem wierd. but once again, power brute is how i will go unless i decide to tuck teh R200 in my yard into the 260Z, so in order to help with this decision i will thread jack for one post, other than gearing difference so higher speed in teh 200 quicker acceleration in the 180, is there a strength difference? oh yeah and the OBX lsd being for a 240sx was straight drop in for the Z's right? i never saw any specifics on that on teh hybridz forum.
EDIT: oh yeah and i still have teh rear end and axles from teh ZX int eh yard is it striaght up unbolt drop put up re bolt application switchin from the R180 to teh R200. i'd somewhat imagine it is.
EDIT: oh yeah and i still have teh rear end and axles from teh ZX int eh yard is it striaght up unbolt drop put up re bolt application switchin from the R180 to teh R200. i'd somewhat imagine it is.
05-10-2007, 01:20 PM
#31
Euro Z King
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands where owning a car is a CRIME!!
Posts: 387
The swap is pretty straight forward all you need is an r200 mustache bar (from a 280Z) as far as i remember to tell what gear ratio you need depends on your engine.. what are you running and what are you using it for?
I would most definatly swap to an r200 when you decide to go lsd.. why only upgrade halfway right ?
I would most definatly swap to an r200 when you decide to go lsd.. why only upgrade halfway right ?
05-10-2007, 01:56 PM
#32
Head Muckraker
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 9,221
In my opinion, the R180 is not significantly weaker than the R200. It is certainly lighter than the R200 which will help with total vehicle weight.
I would only consider the R200 upgrade on your 260Z if you're planning on some big torque numbers. If you just want LSD, the R180 should be fine as long as it's in a gear ratio that properly matches your purpose and engine tranny combo.
If you don't need it for torque and you only want it for bragging rights, go R230 and convert to a viscous from a Q45.
Tangent: It will take a LONG time for the case to wear significantly enough to require replacement on any Torsion/Helical LSD I've ever seen or heard of and you'll never wear it out on a "normally" street driven vehicle.
P.S.
The Quaife has a lifetime transferrable unlimited no questions asked warranty.
I would only consider the R200 upgrade on your 260Z if you're planning on some big torque numbers. If you just want LSD, the R180 should be fine as long as it's in a gear ratio that properly matches your purpose and engine tranny combo.
If you don't need it for torque and you only want it for bragging rights, go R230 and convert to a viscous from a Q45.
Tangent: It will take a LONG time for the case to wear significantly enough to require replacement on any Torsion/Helical LSD I've ever seen or heard of and you'll never wear it out on a "normally" street driven vehicle.
P.S.
The Quaife has a lifetime transferrable unlimited no questions asked warranty.
05-10-2007, 02:13 PM
#33
Über User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: lemont, Illinois
Posts: 9,532
i saw the lifetime warrenty on quife, still not wirth it to me. lol. but yeah i think i might transfer the R200 then cause i got it all sept the 280Z moustache bar (only got the s130 one) but i do have a turbo setup so ill be making decent numbers, unfortunatly only use the NA 5speed, even though the B/W isnt to impressive seeming either, if i stay L28et i will get teh Z32 tranny and mounting plate and the big ole TT R230. my other plan is to go RB26 which i would use the 25 tranny and idk what rear end, i guess a skyline one of the Q45 rear. but those are much future plans cause for now, i yam broke.
05-11-2007, 08:18 AM
#34
Euro Z King
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands where owning a car is a CRIME!!
Posts: 387
I do agree on the r180 not being much stronger, however it depends on what you do with it.. the diff has been the Achilles heel of the car. In rallys this was the source of DNFs !
So if you have r200 go for it weight that close to the ground can even benefit handling.
So if you have r200 go for it weight that close to the ground can even benefit handling.
05-11-2007, 01:45 PM
#35
Head Muckraker
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 9,221
I agree with Frank, but rally's put huge strain on every component and I can see how they would blow out the diff. However, the Subaru WRX STi runs an R160 of the same family...
Based on your budget, torque projections, tire type and expected use, I believe the R180 clutch LSD is fine for snwbrderphat540's needs.
Frank and I on the other hand seem to have large (relatively unlimited) budgets, plan to make big power, run sticky tires and beat the snot out of our cars on and off the track.
If you fall into the same category, go for it baby! If you don't, you can still build a bad *** car with a very reasonable amount of money.
Nismo, Bleach and Apollo are poster children for making kick butt cars on reasonable budgets.
Bear in mind, you'll notice, every person in the list above actually has a running car...
Cheers,
LWW
Based on your budget, torque projections, tire type and expected use, I believe the R180 clutch LSD is fine for snwbrderphat540's needs.
Frank and I on the other hand seem to have large (relatively unlimited) budgets, plan to make big power, run sticky tires and beat the snot out of our cars on and off the track.
If you fall into the same category, go for it baby! If you don't, you can still build a bad *** car with a very reasonable amount of money.
Nismo, Bleach and Apollo are poster children for making kick butt cars on reasonable budgets.
Bear in mind, you'll notice, every person in the list above actually has a running car...
Cheers,
LWW
05-11-2007, 02:03 PM
#36
Über User
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: lemont, Illinois
Posts: 9,532
my car runs, runs great on everything sept WOT and also i have sooo many oil leaks, gotta replace my feed line and my oil pan is a ***, so if you know of where i can get a cheap turbo oil pan let me know, other wise, i gotta stick to patching it. and if i see a cheap 280z R200 mustache bar ill snag it, if not, ill stick R180 guess ill let fate decide that one for me.
05-11-2007, 04:08 PM
#37
Euro Z King
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Utrecht The Netherlands where owning a car is a CRIME!!
Posts: 387
Originally Posted by lww
I agree with Frank, but rally's put huge strain on every component and I can see how they would blow out the diff. However, the Subaru WRX STi runs an R160 of the same family...
Based on your budget, torque projections, tire type and expected use, I believe the R180 clutch LSD is fine for snwbrderphat540's needs.
Frank and I on the other hand seem to have large (relatively unlimited) budgets, plan to make big power, run sticky tires and beat the snot out of our cars on and off the track.
If you fall into the same category, go for it baby! If you don't, you can still build a bad *** car with a very reasonable amount of money.
Nismo, Bleach and Apollo are poster children for making kick butt cars on reasonable budgets.
Bear in mind, you'll notice, every person in the list above actually has a running car...
Cheers,
LWW
Based on your budget, torque projections, tire type and expected use, I believe the R180 clutch LSD is fine for snwbrderphat540's needs.
Frank and I on the other hand seem to have large (relatively unlimited) budgets, plan to make big power, run sticky tires and beat the snot out of our cars on and off the track.
If you fall into the same category, go for it baby! If you don't, you can still build a bad *** car with a very reasonable amount of money.
Nismo, Bleach and Apollo are poster children for making kick butt cars on reasonable budgets.
Bear in mind, you'll notice, every person in the list above actually has a running car...
Cheers,
LWW
Agreed i dont have your numbers nor usage handy ( you probably posted them sorry i forgot) but if within reason a r180 is fine. amd i have never heard anyone breaking it
haha no im just rather resourcefull
but yeah when i drive my car i guess it gets some punishment .. but nothing it wasnt made for in my book
Last edited by frank280zx; 05-11-2007 at 04:12 PM.
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