Carl's Z

Ok, so I'm getting new rotors for the front, and need to once and for all find out.... do these need turned or not?? There seems to be conflicting answers to this. The last I heard was "no". Anyone???

Thanks

EatmyDust

That would be a waste of perfectly good surface to turn a new rotor. you don't turn new rotors, that is unless manufacturers say too. Then you would basicly do it to keep it under waranty.

RodMoyes

Damn it! I so DO NOT want to get into this again. Everybody who isn't in the business say's not to turn them. Everyone who is in the business knows better. The chance that your new rotor, after being shipped from China, Canada, Mexico or just across the street is still "Flat" is about 1 in a million. Have them checked for run out. If by some miracle they're actually true... You scored. If not... They're gonna pulsate, and eventually tweak the caliper piston. Have a machine shop put them on the lathe and check by doing a fine surface cut. I flat out gaurantee you they will be at least slightly warped. 17 years in the business say's I got a pretty safe bet on this.

Rod.

Carl's Z

Thanks Rod. I was hoping you'd chime in on this so I'd know for sure...

RodMoyes

No problem Carl.

This whole idea of not turning rotors has been a major pet peeve of mine because there's so many damn know-it-alls out there who think they have a certificate in metalurgy or something. Or, they've just bought into lame ideas about brake rotors. Taking the top surface off to make sure they are flat is not going to hurt them or lessen their service life. It will only ensure proper fit and performance. If you want 100% contact area between pad and rotor, then the rotor must be flat... period. Anyone who argues otherwise just doesn't get it. A couple examples for you. My new rotors (Slotted) had significant run out right out of the box. Had I put them in the car that way, they would have shaken my kidneys loose with each application of brakes. My buddy with the Sissy white 350Z bought some really expensive cross drilled/slotted rotors on line for his car. The manufacturer/seller flat out said "NO MACHINING REQUIRED" I tried to tell him it was BS before we put them in the car, but he insisted that they were flat. So, we put them in the car straight out of the boxes and what happened? Every time you step on the brake pedal it would shake like a heroin addict going through DT's. It was GNARLY. So of course, we had to take them out and cut them. Now it's nice and smooth. It's just plain normal for a new rotor (Regardless of price and country of origin) to be out of round when you get it.

Rod.

jfairladyz

Maybe we should rename this part of the forum "Rods section-Where he answers all your brake, wheels, suspension and chassis questions"



Sounds good to me. All in favor....

jmmorriso

Rod's the man. Hey, I have a brake related question as well. I had all the rotors turned, and put everything back together with new Kragen cheapie pads, and now it squeals worse than before. I put the old shim thingies back in with the new pads. Should i have opted for better pads and a hardware kit or just take it all apart and put anti squeal on?

EatmyDust

Well rod I do happen to be in the line of work. I don't know everything, and put in nices terms I think you should get off you'r fu@k-n rocker, cause 17 years dosen't make you an expert either.

I work with a lot of guys who have been in the field for 35 years, and they are not so quick to boost their self, and tell every one els they don't know what they are doing.

bottum line if you want the most out of your roters, turn the damn things, but honestly think about it if you want a part to last longer you know going the extra mile in preparing it is the way to go.

RodMoyes

EDIT !!! New stuff ADDED

Where'd that come from?

Frst of all Dusty, I wasn't talking about YOU!
Second, I didn't say I was a brake expert... just more knowledgable than a shade tree mechanic with a carftsman tool kit.
Third, You seriously need to chill on the attitude.

You don't want my advice don't take it. Don't be a snotty little ******* when you disagree.

I'll tell you what. How about I just stop offering advice. Truth is I'm just a frickin idiot without a clue. I'm just a 35 year old guy who somehow managed to bullshit his way up the chain to become the owner of the highest volume Big O store in the entire region... with an A+ customer satisfaction rating.

I will be the first to tell you that there are a lot of guys on this site that know a lot more about engines/driveline/turbo etc than I do. Bleach, lWW and JfairladyZ just to name a few know more about that stuff than I'll ever know. I haven't devoted the time to study and learn that area like I have Tires, suspension, alignment etc because it doesn't pertain directly to my business. I try every day to learn a little more about the area's in which my business operates so that I can offer my customers the best possible service, and so that I don't make stupid mistakes, and to make my store profitable without having to write refund checks for bad service... Checks I've never had to write, but have seen other owners write quite a few.

I have trained extensively. I have been hired by some of the biggest names in the industry to give presentations on these subjects. MOOG, KYB, AKEBONO, MICHELIN, GOODYEAR... have all PAID ME to teach people about this stuff.

My shop has the lowest turn over rate in the company. Guys don't leave my shop. I'm a fair boss, I pay out of pocket for whatever extra training courses they want to attend. I help them finish their ASE's, I reward them for bettering their knowledge. I get my hands dirty in the shop EVERYDAY! Wether it's mounting tires, changing oil, Or rebuilding the entire front end of a car... I get out there and bust-***. I also fire them on the spot (as well as any servicewriter) if they EVER try and sell something that isn't needed, or use pressure tactics. I don't operate that way. I have been screwed over by unreputable people. I won't allow it to happen in MY STORE.

Sorry jmmorriso<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_84248", true); </SCRIPT> But I'm gonna let EatMyDust answer your brake question because HE's so damn smart.

In point of fact, TBC Corp who owns the BIG O name and Franchise association... and of which I am a major shareholder, has a few other assetts you may have heard of. Merchant's, Tire Kingdom, NTB, Carrol Tire... and as of last year... SEARS tire and auto service centers. I don't work for "Billy Joe Jim-Bob's Tires n'stuff" repair shack. I Own my Store and have the backing of the biggest such company on the planet. Other store owners and managers use MY STORE as an example. They also spend day's, sometimes weeks in my store learning from ME about how to better theirown operation. When They Hire new Servicewriters or managers, they send them to ME to be trained.

I have sent a letter to TBC corp informing them that I would be happy to bring in 1 or 2 employees of NTB, Sears Auto, or Tire Kingodom who may have lost their job, or their home due to the destruction left by Hurricane Katrina in the gulf region. I have offered to provide them and their family a place to stay and work during what will be a long and grueling rebuilding process. I Try really hard to be a good guy. I don't need YOU giving me ****.

So MR. Dust. Theirs my high horse. Maybe I don't know **** in your mind, but I'm comfortable in my knowledge.


Let's all make the guy who works for Sears the expert instead.

I'll just read along from now on.

Rod.

WildmaN

Hey Rod, don't think like that man. Your info is quite useful, and I always thought you gave good advice. Don't let it get to you, just because of a bad apple in the bunch, says you are a know-it-all. I like to come on here, and pick up tips and info, so I can better understand my Z. And if possibe do my own work, and save myself money. And if I was in Cali, I would go to your shop to do suspension and such. Because I think it would be done right, and to my satisfaction. Especially if you have big name companies that request to be your shareholder. That is great man, and it shows your knowledge.

By no means am I kissing #ss, I am stating my opinion. And would like Rod to still offer advice, and input. All in favor speak, and convince this guy to keep helping us out, if we have a problem, or question related to what he knows.

Now I know this has been posted in another thread, but what would the best springs, and struts for my Z.? Eibach springs, or Tokico. Or KYB, or Tokico struts. I want to get the best possible ride, but still have great handling for a street Z. There you go man, I will take your input on this, and will appreciate it much.

jmmorriso

Rod, I think you said it best when you said he worked for SEARS! The Sears auto center nearest my home has been closed several times by the BAR for dishonest sales tactics and shoddy, even dangerous work, and from what I've heard the rest of them are about as bad. The body shop I work for uses uses Big O for all its alignments and I do all the suspension and brake work on the customer's as well as the Boss' cars, trucks, and semis.

BigBirdsZ

DON'T MESS WITH ROD that man spits fire

jfairladyz

I'll keep it short and simple. There ain't a damn person on here that doesn't RESPECT your opinion in atleast this part of the forum Rod. Knowledge in undercar is a rare commodity these days and your advice is extremely helpful here.

RodMoyes

Thanks guys,

I think what pissed me off the most was that in his own thread, I tried to help the little Fu&*^r with Free advice on addressing his problem, and offering him a potential solution that could, and most likely would have saved him time, money and headache. He thanks me by turning into a turd.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make some people smart.

I'll be happy to lend advice to anyone who wants it. If someone has a differenig opinion, I'd love to hear it. If I'm ever wrong, I want to know. I would just expect whatever criticism is directed my way to be constructive and sincere rather than what Mr. Dust had to offer.

Oh, and when I made the comment about "By buddy with the sissy white 350Z", I need to qualify that. White is a great color for a lot of cars. lWW's car looks sweet in white. Now, I don't know how many of you have seen a white 350Z, but it just doesn't work for me (Or any of my friends except him). The white ones scream out one of two statements when going by. 1. "I'm a chick with a fast car" and 2. "I'm thooper, thanx 4 athking!" On the flip side of that, I've seen a couple white ones that had some body mods and nice wheels, and they actually looked pretty good.

Rod.

EatmyDust

Well not to make you fill stupid or anything man, but you read that comit all not the right way.
I ment no harm, or offens by it, my point was that you are not that old in the field compared to a lot of people, so get off your rocker, I was saying like a grand paw.
that is what I hate about computers it is easy to miss interpret what somone is saying when you don't know there tone, or any thing.

What I can say about sears, is that it is the worst place I have ever worked, they screw their customers on price, and don't give a **** about their employees.
I don't do anything the sears way and I don't have a come back rate either. I like customers, and I am quick to thank a customer and offer my services were ever I can on work sears dose not do.
beleav me I know sears sucks.


Sory you took my little post like you did, and I didn't think you were talking about me, frankly by now I don't really give a ****. every body is now worryed about fillings, but that is just a little to gay for me. I will assure you I am not a snotty *******.
so take your journeyman expert talent bullshit and blow it up someone els's ***.
Sory about that coment to, I just felt you diserved it for the snotty ******* thing.


Oh and the 35 year guys I am talking about is not at sears they are in the diesel field. I tell you what it is funny to see these old guys out here with this heavy *** stuff, but man they can work majic on any of this stuff they know soo much. I hope to be there one day when I am their age. Sears is only a job for me until January, then I am done with UTI, and I am going to work for MHC, doing the stuff on on various diesel's like the cummins, cat's, International's, duitz's, stuff like that.

ZedZilla

Hey Guys for what its worth. When I was doing the brake job on my Z I did not know any better and I was in the process of simply slapping them on. Well I start on the Z's back end and the rear rotor just wont fit over the bearing / spindle. I tried in vain for a few minutes. Then I checked the rotor and the distance between the stud holes and the centre hole for the bearing did not match for all 4 holes. That bearing hole in the rotor had been cut off centre. Nothing like a little bitching and swearing to make you feel better but I had a pleasent point to make when I brought it back to the shop. They couldn't believe it either. Replacement rotor was immediately offered which I refused in favour of another manufacturer's brand.

Case in point...If they can drill a silly hole wrong they can certainly screw up other things. I say we can all benefit from insight and good advice. Dont mock what you dont know for sure personaly.

Rod, I aint gonna kiss your a$$ but a pat on the back should be a good fit for your ongoing input.

RodMoyes

Way back at the begining of this thread, I mentioned how I really didn't want to get into this topic again... but at the same time I felt obligated to share what I knew. Here's the reason:

Everyday, I deal with an endless throng of "shadetree mechanics" and "backyard techs" who bring their cars into my shop for one service or other. It's always the same thing. They tell me how when they were 14,15,17... they helped their dad "Rebuild" a '57 chevy (or whatever) in their garage, or that when they were in high school, they worked at a gas station. So, of course now... twenty or thirty years later, they know evrything. They want to stand over the techs shoulder that is working on their car and offer advice, or tell them how to do their job, or spend the entire time talking about "If I had the time, I'd do it myself" and blah blah blah.

I get so freaking tired of it, I just want to Scream "Bullshit!" or ask them "If you're such a great god damned mechanic, why are you having us fix your car?" It get's really frustrating. They don't know jack in most cases... that's why they come to me. I get the guys who constantly bitch about the price of parts, or ask why the labor rate is so high... "I wish I was gettin' 70 bucks an hour to put in brake pads", or "I coulda saved myself a hundred bucks in labor doing it myself."

What they don't know or understand is that it costs a shitload of money to operate a business like this... especially in California, and even more so in their hoidy toidy little upscale neighborhood. That mechaninc who's working on their car isn't getting 70 bucks an hour, He also owns his own tools, most of these guys pay more in tool payments every month than those customers pay on their nice new beemer or mercedes. A good snap-on, Mac, Matco or Cornwell tool box can be ten grand by itself. The tools are insanely expensive. The schooling to get ASE's or smog certs is expensive... and knowledge isn't chep.

Every dollar I spend in payroll, I spend almost a dollar more in Workers Comp or employee benefits. There's all the bills associated with the shop. Electricity, equipment, maintenance. Why does it cost nine bucks to balance my tires? Because that balancer cost 12 grand, and it needs regular maintenace. A good tire machine that's capable of mounting all those fancy 24 inch spinners without beating them to hell...14 grand, and I have two of them, and they need regular maintenance, not to mention the classic Coates 40/40 machine (Only about 5 grand). Why does it cost 70 bucks for a four wheel alignment? because you gotta pay the guy who's doing it, and that alignment computer... 17 Grand, quarterly software upgrades are a grand each time, the rack... you don't want to know. All that new state of the art crap sitting around my shop cost a lot of money to begin with, and it cost even more to maintain and keep current. All the while, I gotta deal with EPA concerns, building maintenance, rent, paying to get rid of waste fluids, tires... it goes on and on.

Half of the time these backyard techs have to have their cars towed into the shop because they screwed them up so bad trying to fix them, that now they won't drive at all... and they still want to tell me or my guys how to do it. I love the guys who don't realize that the rear brake calipers have actuators in them, and they try all day to force the piston to retract only to blow the caliper apart and have it towed in to get fixed. Or the guys trying to slide the front rotor off a honda accord with pressed hubs, and beating the crap out of the rotor with a hammer, or screwing up the bearings... I get 'em all.

Through it all, I just smile and try and keep my cool. They don't need to know what a pain in the *** they are. I offer whatever assistance I can, or give whtever explanations they need to feel better about spending their money. Then, I go home and want to kick their ***. Most of my customers are way cool. I have a great relationship with them. I love helping people and feeling like I accomplished something. Unfortunately, there's always going to be those people that you can't get through to, or that aren't going to be happy unless you do everything for free. Then again, it's the free services that will always come back and bite you the hardest, but I won't get into that right now.

So, that's why I didn't want to get into it. Everybody has their own idea about brakes, and nobody want's to think that what they've learned or been told is wrong. It's a daily routine for me to have to educate people on this stuff... and it's an uphill batlle most of the time. Sorry if I get a little pissy about it, but I'm passionate and prideful, and I don't like being "called out" by someone who clearly has less knowledge on the subject than I do, but "Knows a guy" or "Worked with a guy" or "had an uncle who knew a guy that worked with a guy who's neighbor once read somehwere" that you should or shouldn't do this or that.

Rod.

ZedZilla

Rod I must say your above explanation has created in me a clear appreciation for the small business owner, if not specificaly for the local auto garage. Those questions have likely surfaced through all our minds some time or the other as we sit in the garage's waiting room. Good to have some genuine answers to ponder. A lack of understanding on the consumer's part does not negate the rigours of owning your own place of business.........and It appears you are doing a heck of a job at it.

Dont fret too much about this dude. Opinions are what makes us all unique and they are not always agreeable to us all. Next time you're at your local ZBucks order an icemocha or whatever it is they sell. (T-ho's is all that us Canucks need up here, i.e, Tim Horton's for those of us less cultured about the land of the Maple Leaf ). Its on me dude, the check is in the mail

RodMoyes

You rock.


Rod.

WildmaN

Well said Rod, I don't think you left anything out. Better than I could do, that is for sure. Now I see your point of view on your business and such. It is nice that you keep your cool, me personally I don't think I could handle it as good as you. I have little patience, in dealing with people. But I try to bite my tongue, because it is a powerful weapon! I am better than I used to be with people, but there those kind, that are impossible. Keep up the good work, and I wish you all the best!

EatmyDust

Point taken yes theire are a lot of gus who do come into the shop like you are saying and try to tell us how to work on their vehicles. Now that you mention it, thats pretty funny.

lww

I've been quiet on this topic, mostly because I've been traveling and haven't had a chance to keep up.

So here goes. Rod is a smart guy that has to deal with the public. The public is stupid. This is why I don't work with them anymore. I ran my own consulting business with 35 full-time employees for a number of years. That was when I realized the vast majority of people are stupid. Ignorance I can deal with, it's a correctable condition that only requires education. Stupidity is a life long affliction that has no cure.

I agree with you, but I prefer to drown them if they don't drink.

Now, Dusty is a young guy who's barely been in this world more than 2 decades. He has horrible spelling and grammar skills, obviously an unfortunate result of our declining public education system. However, after insulting Rod, he did agree with him. Ie. his quote below:

If the red haze in Rod's eyes hadn't made it impossible for him to see Dusties agreement, this thread may have gone differently. But the presentation was less than perfect, hence the death spiral that followed.

Now that we're past it Dust, in the future, take a breath and think about your reply before hitting that [SUBMIT] button. I know I knew everything when I was 21 too, but I've learned sometimes it's better to listen than speak.

I can't tell you guys how many times I've started to reply to a thread and half way through my response I realize I don't have an 'effing clue what the hell I'm talking about. That's when I delete my 'contribution' to the thread and leave it to someone that probably knows the real answer.

I don't actually know that much, I just try not be authoritative on subjects I have no direct experience with and even then, just because it seemed the right thing to do when I experienced it, doesn't guarantee it'll be right in the long run, just ask my first wife! It's the wise man that knows when to say "I don't know". I wish I had said that when the preacher asked me if I would take this woman's hand in marriage!

Obviously, you both have experience in this field, I would suspect Rod has more 'direct' experience (he's older and been doing it longer, so in this case, he wins) and you both agree on the technical content of this thread. It was the presentation that pissed everyone off.

Let's leave it at that and maybe we can all work on our presentation. For what it's worth, I've gone off on members of this forum too and felt bad about it afterwards. I was right, but I didn't need to be shitty about it.

And just for everyone's information my sig is 'LWW' in lower case.

NOT 'I'WW Damnit!

Cheers!

RodMoyes

Ya know, I finally figured out the whole IWW vs lWW thing just recently, and if you notice... the last few times I mentioned you, I stated it as lWW .
Funny how it never looked right before. Thanks for your input on the thread. There have been plenty of threads where I have bitten my tongue and not said anything, and other times when... like you, I deleted a post mid way through because I knew it was just gonna **** somebody off. Anyone who knows me, also knows that I'm nowhere near as stuck up and arrogant as I sometimes come across. I just don't like having my knowledge questioned or debated by someone with less knowledge or experience. One thing you said really stood out for me. It's always been my philosophy in business that if someone asked me a question that I couldn't answer with surity, I would tell them that I didn't know the answer to their question directly, but knew how or where to obtain that answer.

Like I said before, You and Bleach and JFariladyZ in particular are far more knowledgable in many areas than I am. When the time comes for me to do my turbo swap, I'm gonna be all over you three like white on rice for help and advice.

I hate it when a thread goes south due to hard feelings and misunderstandings. I certainly don't like being the one to fire the first shot, but sometimes you have to stand your ground. I hope this last ordeal is well behind us all.

Rod.

Dorifto

Man ... this brings back memories. I remember back in the day when I started **** with lww [remember that? I about got my *** handed to me there] ...

Guess we've all been on both sides of the argument before, eh?

Believe it or not guys, you're really helping me out with this whole "We do this in this business" arguing. I plan on opening up a performance shop in the next few years, and this stuff really gets me thinking. So, for that, I thank you all.

Now, let's keep this Z-family happy and close, eh?

Love, Peace, and Chicken Grease,
-Dave-O

WildmaN

Yeah I just try to stay neutral on something, I am not verry knowledgable in. It keeps me out of trouble. But if I know something for sure, I will give the info I know, to someone that needs it. But I try not to get into an arguement. Especially one I know I am going to lose!