Where is the love?
12-06-2007, 03:28 PM
#26
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 106
The V-8 is the best option of them all. It is shorter, lighter, lower, and vastly more powerful without all the life support equipment the tubo motor needs to make power.
Turbos are a HIGHLY unreliable way to make power.
You need to bone up on your engines.
A typical track built SBC weighs less than the L-series AND the RB series.
If you go look up SBC weights for great-grandma's land yachts you are not getting a true weight comparison to what 99.9% of the people swapping these V-8s into cars use. Aluminum heads, aluminum intake, tubular headers, aluminum waterpump, lightweight flywheels, lightweight dampers, etc etc etc... My 1964 Corvette 327 is heavier than most I see on track because it has the cast iron 461 heads. It is still within a few pounds of the stock L-24 weight. This information is highly documented and available IN PRINT. Go read the Jags That Run SBC swap manual, or go talk to any of the various car clubs that swap these engines into virtually anything on track.
The V-8 engine not only sits lower in the car. It is not as TALL as either L-6 candidate. That is a DOUBLE BONUS.
The V-8 engine is considerably shorter. The JTR swap I am using ALSO places the back of the block closer to the firewall than the L-series. This is another DOUBLE BONUS. In fact the JTR placement makes my car a MID-ENGINED vehicle. The crankshaft is ENTIRELY BEHIND the front crossmember.
The V-8 engine displaces as much air as TWO(2) RB-26 engines. It does not need Turbos to make EVEN MORE horsepower than the RB 26 with enough life support for a Neo-natal medical wing. The sheer weight of the RB-life support equipment throws it off the scales even IF the RB weighed less as a bare longblock.
Turbos are a HIGHLY unreliable way to make power.
You need to bone up on your engines.
A typical track built SBC weighs less than the L-series AND the RB series.
If you go look up SBC weights for great-grandma's land yachts you are not getting a true weight comparison to what 99.9% of the people swapping these V-8s into cars use. Aluminum heads, aluminum intake, tubular headers, aluminum waterpump, lightweight flywheels, lightweight dampers, etc etc etc... My 1964 Corvette 327 is heavier than most I see on track because it has the cast iron 461 heads. It is still within a few pounds of the stock L-24 weight. This information is highly documented and available IN PRINT. Go read the Jags That Run SBC swap manual, or go talk to any of the various car clubs that swap these engines into virtually anything on track.
The V-8 engine not only sits lower in the car. It is not as TALL as either L-6 candidate. That is a DOUBLE BONUS.
The V-8 engine is considerably shorter. The JTR swap I am using ALSO places the back of the block closer to the firewall than the L-series. This is another DOUBLE BONUS. In fact the JTR placement makes my car a MID-ENGINED vehicle. The crankshaft is ENTIRELY BEHIND the front crossmember.
The V-8 engine displaces as much air as TWO(2) RB-26 engines. It does not need Turbos to make EVEN MORE horsepower than the RB 26 with enough life support for a Neo-natal medical wing. The sheer weight of the RB-life support equipment throws it off the scales even IF the RB weighed less as a bare longblock.
Last edited by bjhines; 12-06-2007 at 05:51 PM.
12-06-2007, 03:59 PM
#27
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 106
You are probably fidgiting while you try to come back on the engine weights info.
Lets look at block design and weight.
The RB and the L-series have fully skirted blocks. The blocks are considerably longer(below the crankshaft) and they do not take advantage of the siamesed V-configuration of the V-8. They are strong engines, but is that what you need in a sports car? I'll leave the Straight blocks to the Big rigs and farm tractors.
The RB series.. and the VG series have lower block bracing that is not part of the V-8 design. The V-8 block stops at the centerline of the crankshaft and the bearing caps are small little pieces of metal. The RB and VG have HUGE, one-piece main bearing trusses. The blocks stick down well below the crankshaft centerline. In fact the blocks contiue far enough down to cover the flyweights and the throws.
The L-6 Nissan engines are both overweight boat-anchors. They have more metal in them than you think. The V-8 is a wonderfully simple and compact design. The SBC displaces SOO MUCH MORE than the l-6s that there is nothing they could ever do to keep up.
Lets look at block design and weight.
The RB and the L-series have fully skirted blocks. The blocks are considerably longer(below the crankshaft) and they do not take advantage of the siamesed V-configuration of the V-8. They are strong engines, but is that what you need in a sports car? I'll leave the Straight blocks to the Big rigs and farm tractors.
The RB series.. and the VG series have lower block bracing that is not part of the V-8 design. The V-8 block stops at the centerline of the crankshaft and the bearing caps are small little pieces of metal. The RB and VG have HUGE, one-piece main bearing trusses. The blocks stick down well below the crankshaft centerline. In fact the blocks contiue far enough down to cover the flyweights and the throws.
The L-6 Nissan engines are both overweight boat-anchors. They have more metal in them than you think. The V-8 is a wonderfully simple and compact design. The SBC displaces SOO MUCH MORE than the l-6s that there is nothing they could ever do to keep up.
Last edited by bjhines; 12-06-2007 at 05:52 PM.
12-06-2007, 05:59 PM
#28
Hoov for Pres!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Tempe AZ
Posts: 959
Wasn't fidgiting at all. I was just gone at the local range putting some rounds through my Sig.
Don't know if I would call turbo's a highly unrealiable way to make power. High compression is not all that nice on an engine either.
But, it is efficient. Making the same power out of much less engine.
V8's are cool. I have one. In my truck.
I think they belong in American cars and trucks. Not so much a Japanese sports car. I know. I am crazy.
There is no replacement for displacement.
But, there is a lot of fun to be had.
I am not going to race my car on a regular basis.
And if I did, I still probably wouldn't go with a V8 in my Z.
The great thing about the RB26DETT is that I can take it to the track with around 500hp on stock internals, with no problems. I still can't find a bunch of history of these engines crapping out on the track more than other engines.
And turn the boost down with a controller off the track, and get decent gas mileage.
I would not go and boast the greatness of main caps in V8 engines. You have to get a 4 bolt main for the engine to be worth it. They flex more, you get less miles, and less efficiency. They are not as naturally balanced as an L6 engine.
For a SBC with alluminum heads, I believe you are looking at around 500+ pounds. With a T5, nearing 600. That's great. Lighter than the RB26DETT and a tranny. But, I cannot find numbers for that. I beleive it's around 100 pounds heavier. That's with A/C, and other things too. The SBC is bare.
How about the weight of fuel too?
There are a lot of numbers to crunch. It comes down to two cars, very different, both fast, both fun. And I think track times would vary more dependent on the driver, than the two cars themselves.
I would have more fun with the RB, than I would a SBC with no soul or imagination. A small block Chevy has been stuffed into everything. It's the cheap easy way out with no imagination.
Not my style.
That's all there is to it. If I were racing for money, I might change. But I don't. So there is really no argument left.
We can both agree to disagree. I like the RB better than a V8 in this application.
I love my 408 Windsor in my truck.
Don't know if I would call turbo's a highly unrealiable way to make power. High compression is not all that nice on an engine either.
But, it is efficient. Making the same power out of much less engine.
V8's are cool. I have one. In my truck.
I think they belong in American cars and trucks. Not so much a Japanese sports car. I know. I am crazy.
There is no replacement for displacement.
But, there is a lot of fun to be had.
I am not going to race my car on a regular basis.
And if I did, I still probably wouldn't go with a V8 in my Z.
The great thing about the RB26DETT is that I can take it to the track with around 500hp on stock internals, with no problems. I still can't find a bunch of history of these engines crapping out on the track more than other engines.
And turn the boost down with a controller off the track, and get decent gas mileage.
I would not go and boast the greatness of main caps in V8 engines. You have to get a 4 bolt main for the engine to be worth it. They flex more, you get less miles, and less efficiency. They are not as naturally balanced as an L6 engine.
For a SBC with alluminum heads, I believe you are looking at around 500+ pounds. With a T5, nearing 600. That's great. Lighter than the RB26DETT and a tranny. But, I cannot find numbers for that. I beleive it's around 100 pounds heavier. That's with A/C, and other things too. The SBC is bare.
How about the weight of fuel too?
There are a lot of numbers to crunch. It comes down to two cars, very different, both fast, both fun. And I think track times would vary more dependent on the driver, than the two cars themselves.
I would have more fun with the RB, than I would a SBC with no soul or imagination. A small block Chevy has been stuffed into everything. It's the cheap easy way out with no imagination.
Not my style.
That's all there is to it. If I were racing for money, I might change. But I don't. So there is really no argument left.
We can both agree to disagree. I like the RB better than a V8 in this application.
I love my 408 Windsor in my truck.
12-06-2007, 07:11 PM
#29
Yeah... what Ratfink said... a SBC has been put in almost everthing... most people just use a SBC because of the price of after market parts... and you can go to the local food market (LOL) to get your parts... so you should get a Chevy Corvair and put a SBC in it & race it... I say keep Nissan in Nissan & Chevy in Chevy... BTY, why not a Ford 302??? or a 340 Mopar??? Good power... after market parts are easy to get... Why even use a Nissan??? Sorry, I just can't see putting a SBC in every car...
12-06-2007, 07:53 PM
#30
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 106
I can perfectly understand the feelings you express in your last post. But the previous posts were mis-informed.
I can understand the desire to keep the original powerplant in a car to keep the original character of the vehicle. I enjoy my L24 powered 240Z. But it is fairly high strung just to get ~interesting~ performance. I can get more power than than grip with an SBC swap. The weight bias, and center of gravity improves with the swap. It is even simpler than the original 1972 L24.
It is cheaper than the original L24 as well. I will spend more on tires and brakes in one season than the SBC engine. It could become a semi-annual replacement and still end up cheaper and easier than ONE RB engine. I can have another SBC dropped off at the shop the day after I order it. How long does it take to get an RB replacement?, especially considering it has catastophic failure inducing TURBOS.
I can't vouch for the RB in particular(I have never seen one at a road race event), but virtually every turbocharged vehicle I have seen on track has had turbo-related issues. If you wan't to see the RB engines in use then you need to goto the drag race track. They are truly impressive for short bursts, but still rare. I have no doubt that the streetable RB engines can monstrously outperform the streetable SBC engines. But you have mentioned Road-Racing for your intentions. The forced indution engines can't handle long duration output at respectable horsepower levels. The SBC can outperform the turbo engines under the kinds of conditions they will see on a road race course.
One other issue with turbo engines comes from the way they drive. If you attempt to increase the power output it inevitably becomes harder to modulate. A beastly turbo car becomes a driver-confidence killer. That makes the car slower around the course.
I can understand the desire to keep the original powerplant in a car to keep the original character of the vehicle. I enjoy my L24 powered 240Z. But it is fairly high strung just to get ~interesting~ performance. I can get more power than than grip with an SBC swap. The weight bias, and center of gravity improves with the swap. It is even simpler than the original 1972 L24.
It is cheaper than the original L24 as well. I will spend more on tires and brakes in one season than the SBC engine. It could become a semi-annual replacement and still end up cheaper and easier than ONE RB engine. I can have another SBC dropped off at the shop the day after I order it. How long does it take to get an RB replacement?, especially considering it has catastophic failure inducing TURBOS.
I can't vouch for the RB in particular(I have never seen one at a road race event), but virtually every turbocharged vehicle I have seen on track has had turbo-related issues. If you wan't to see the RB engines in use then you need to goto the drag race track. They are truly impressive for short bursts, but still rare. I have no doubt that the streetable RB engines can monstrously outperform the streetable SBC engines. But you have mentioned Road-Racing for your intentions. The forced indution engines can't handle long duration output at respectable horsepower levels. The SBC can outperform the turbo engines under the kinds of conditions they will see on a road race course.
One other issue with turbo engines comes from the way they drive. If you attempt to increase the power output it inevitably becomes harder to modulate. A beastly turbo car becomes a driver-confidence killer. That makes the car slower around the course.
Last edited by bjhines; 12-06-2007 at 08:33 PM.
12-06-2007, 07:56 PM
#31
Turbo motors CAN stay alive on the track... it just takes a lot of $$$ and engineering knowledge. Look at the F1 cars... Le Mans, GT, etc... many use twin or quad turbos with huge intercoolers & radiators.
12-06-2007, 08:40 PM
#33
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 106
Actually,
I have seen too many heartbreaking failures of turbocharged cars. The guys that run them don't make it to very many events and they usually drop out of the series after half a season of frustration, or one devastating event. I always hope they will come back next year with another car, but they usually don't.
When I do see turbocharged cars that stick around and don't have problems, they are underboosted and driven with extreme care. They are not usually very impressive like that. The only sensible modifications I have seen are cooling related on turbo cars that are owned by mechanical engineers who make a hobby out of the engine management and never get the rest of the car in order.
I have learned that the power levels that people manage for 10 seconds at a time down the drag race circuit have NOTHING to do with power levels during a 30 minute to one hour event. Turbo charging is NOT appropriate for hobby budget racing. They work fine for F1 teams with millions of $$$ to spend.
I have seen too many heartbreaking failures of turbocharged cars. The guys that run them don't make it to very many events and they usually drop out of the series after half a season of frustration, or one devastating event. I always hope they will come back next year with another car, but they usually don't.
When I do see turbocharged cars that stick around and don't have problems, they are underboosted and driven with extreme care. They are not usually very impressive like that. The only sensible modifications I have seen are cooling related on turbo cars that are owned by mechanical engineers who make a hobby out of the engine management and never get the rest of the car in order.
I have learned that the power levels that people manage for 10 seconds at a time down the drag race circuit have NOTHING to do with power levels during a 30 minute to one hour event. Turbo charging is NOT appropriate for hobby budget racing. They work fine for F1 teams with millions of $$$ to spend.
Last edited by bjhines; 12-06-2007 at 08:44 PM.
12-06-2007, 08:49 PM
#34
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Raleigh NC
Posts: 106
As I say this I am forgetting the ONE turbo car that has not had much trouble with the engine. It is a 280Z with the L-28.
It was built by a group of engineers and driven by an owner who has the money in his budget to run this MONSTER 280Z. This thing is FREAKING fast... This car is also my target on track. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
It was built by a group of engineers and driven by an owner who has the money in his budget to run this MONSTER 280Z. This thing is FREAKING fast... This car is also my target on track. We will see how it pans out in the long run.
12-06-2007, 08:56 PM
#35
See, you just said it... turbo cars that are Over Worked!!! 
If I run the max that my car could safely run, then I could run all day, but if I run more boost than I should even 2psi more for a long time, then BOOM... and your right... 1/4 mile and a road course set up would be difference set up...
What is your RWHP with the SBC?
If I run the max that my car could safely run, then I could run all day, but if I run more boost than I should even 2psi more for a long time, then BOOM... and your right... 1/4 mile and a road course set up would be difference set up... What is your RWHP with the SBC?
12-18-2007, 02:03 PM
#37
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Location: dayton, nevada usa
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FYI The L28/F54 blocks are siamese cyclinders.
I still like the Nissan truck Titan engine for a rare swap. A friend has one and I measured the engine. It is approximately 27" wide 27" long and 29" from the pan to the manifold cover. All aluminum, nothing in the back to get it 1/2 inch away from the firewall. May have clearance issues for the 5 speed auto but I'm pretty sure I could get one to fit. 340 hp corked up! Cost? I saw a motor and trans on ebay go for $2500.
I still like the Nissan truck Titan engine for a rare swap. A friend has one and I measured the engine. It is approximately 27" wide 27" long and 29" from the pan to the manifold cover. All aluminum, nothing in the back to get it 1/2 inch away from the firewall. May have clearance issues for the 5 speed auto but I'm pretty sure I could get one to fit. 340 hp corked up! Cost? I saw a motor and trans on ebay go for $2500.
12-19-2007, 12:05 PM
#40
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: dayton, nevada usa
Posts: 1,691
Originally Posted by WildmaN
^^ I agree, that is what I would put in my Z. If I was going V-8, and keep it Nissan. Wow that is pretty cheap for motor and trans. Crazy man!
This is a 300 hp 375 torgue out of a 2004 but it is doable!
By the way, that length did not include the fan and extension. All measurements were by eye over a tape.
Last edited by theramz; 12-19-2007 at 12:55 PM.
12-19-2007, 01:21 PM
#41
More Than Meets The Eye
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Mesa, Az
Posts: 5,120
Originally Posted by theramz
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Nissa...spagenameZWDVW
This is a 300 hp 375 torgue out of a 2004 but it is doable!
By the way, that length did not include the fan and extension. All measurements were by eye over a tape.
This is a 300 hp 375 torgue out of a 2004 but it is doable!
By the way, that length did not include the fan and extension. All measurements were by eye over a tape.
12-19-2007, 02:05 PM
#42
I have a present for you...
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: dayton, nevada usa
Posts: 1,691
This one doesn't include the trans. You can wait for the complete engine and tranny deal. I crawled under my buddies Titan and sure enough the bell housing to the 4x4 auto is a seperate piece. I would by just buy the bell housing from Nissan and remachine it to fit a T-56 and use a hydraulic type throw out bearing. I would also change the rear diff and shafts to something a lot more robust. Not to mention a new brake system to stop that madre.
I here Viper tastes like chicken!
I here Viper tastes like chicken!
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